# Should sedition be decriminalized? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803 "2006-03-02T20:08:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/1 "2006-03-02T20:08:56Z")
A VA nurse who wrote a letter to the editor criticizing the Bush Administration and the war was recently investigated by the VA for “sedition.” [http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/148237](http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/03/02/148237) Ridiculous, of course. But this story does point up a fact we don’t much think about: Sedition **is** a crime. From the U.S. Code – [http://frwebgate4.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=32427025755+11+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve:](http://frwebgate4.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=32427025755+11+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve:) > [@](#): > > TITLE 18–CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE > > ``` > PART I--CRIMES > > CHAPTER 115--TREASON, SEDITION, AND SUBVERSIVE ACTIVITIES > > ``` > > Sec. 2385. Advocating overthrow of Government > > ``` > Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches > > ``` > > the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or > destroying the government of the United States or the government of any > State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of > any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the > assassination of any officer of any such government; or > Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any > such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, > distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter > advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or > propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United > States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or > Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, > group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the > overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or > becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, > or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof– > Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty > years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United > States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next > following his conviction. And most states have their own anti-sedition statutes. The courts have never ruled them unconstitutional, AFAIK. But what is constitutional is not necessarily wise or just. Should sedition, as defined above, be a crime, or not? ---
**Author:** ![Menocchio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@Menocchio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Menocchio)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/2 "2006-03-02T20:29:30Z")
Hmmm… Tricky issue. On the surface it looks similar to laws prohibiting threats against individuals, only applied to the government. With that being the case, it seems superfluous at best. Any threat or enticement to violence against the govrnment would also be a threat against the people in it. There’s already laws against overthrowing the government (not directly, perhaps, but certainly against the actions one would have to take to violently overthrow the government. If I seriously advocate such illegal activity, I’m committing conspiracy, am I not? I don’t see why the government needs an additional layer of protection above other people and institutions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/3 "2006-03-02T20:40:40Z")
Yes, it should, but only because of the terms “by force or violence” “by the assassination of any officer”. It’s akin to yelling FIRE! in a crowded theatre. However, I would hope that the sedition portions of this law would be enforced on an extremely rare basis. The nurse was IMHO a careless idiot to include the words “act **force** fully” and the Agency was correct to \*investigate \* her- and also correct to apparently have that investigation come to naught. An “investigation” was the correct thing. Punishing her would be incorrect. However, I am not sure if I would want a careless idiot for a nurse. Sorry. Now, if she had not included a phrase like that one- then there would have been no investigation. I have no doubt that many 10’s of thousands of dudes & dudettes who work for the Government have written letters protesting the current Administrations Policies. Hell, I work for the Government and have written such letters (and they have been printed, too). I did have my Boss remind me not to send any such letter out using my government email or government postage. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/4 "2006-03-02T20:47:34Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, it should, . be a crime. The OP asks two opposite questions, sorry. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/5 "2006-03-02T21:14:24Z")
Well, anybody who advocates violently destroying my society isn’t exactly going to get much sympathy with me. Should we allow violent threats against individual people? Obviously that’s a crime. What about classes of people? Should it be legal to advocate violence against, say, jews or blacks or gays or abortion doctors or atheists? Of course not. Then why should it be OK to advocate violence against government workers? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/6 "2006-03-02T21:23:10Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Well, anybody who advocates violently destroying my society isn’t exactly going to get much sympathy with me. Your **society** and your **government** are two different things. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/7 "2006-03-02T21:29:37Z")
I can state with 100% confidence that anyone who advocates violently destroying the government of the United States wants to destroy my civil and human rights, as well as the civil and human rights of my friends and neighbors, and yours to. If you violently supress civil rights in the region formerly known as the United States, you’ve destroyed the society that used to exist there. Anyway this is just semantics. Why should people have the right to advocate the use of violence against civil servants? You wanna advocate that we dissolve the United States and substitute some new utopian society, go ahead. When you tell me you’re going to shoot me if I don’t agree, I’m gonna advocate that the cops put you in jail. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/8 "2006-03-02T21:47:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > I can state with 100% confidence that anyone who advocates violently destroying the government of the United States wants to destroy my civil and human rights, as well as the civil and human rights of my friends and neighbors, and yours to. What makes you think **that?!** > [@Lemur866](#): > > Why should people have the right to advocate the use of violence against civil servants? “Violence against civil servants”? Only if you’re a dumbass like Timothy McVeigh. That’s neither a goal nor, usually, a tactic of revolutionaries. A smart revolutionary, in fact, will want to keep at least some of the civil servants of the old regime to work in the new one (assuming the revolution is not aiming at anarchy). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/9 "2006-03-02T22:01:41Z")
Should sedition be decriminalized? Um…hell no. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > And most states have their own anti-sedition statutes. The courts have never ruled them unconstitutional, AFAIK. But what is constitutional is not necessarily wise or just. Should sedition, as defined above, be a crime, or not? Lets just look at the first paragraph: “Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government;” No brainer IMHO. Sedition is and should remain a crime. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/10 "2006-03-02T22:40:00Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What makes you think **that?!** Because if they respected civil rights they’d try to change things by democratic means, obviously. Anyone who embraces violence as a method of changing the government neccesarily rejects democracy, because the majority of people don’t support changing the government. If they did, the government would change. So anyone who advocates violent change of the government is threatening to shoot me unless I give up my civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/11 "2006-03-02T22:43:20Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > . . . because the majority of people don’t support changing the government. If they did, the government would change. You can’t honestly believe that. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/12 "2006-03-02T22:51:49Z")
So, if I say “the only way to get rid of corruption in the government is to dissolve Congress”, I can be prosectued for sedition? After all, I would’ve just knowinlgy advocated for the destruction of the US government. And I’m not asking as a practical matter (i.e., whether I’d actually be prosecuted), but as a matter of what the law says. ---
**Author:** ![Digital\_Stimulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Digital\_Stimulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Digital_Stimulus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/13 "2006-03-02T22:52:50Z")
Whoops. Missed that bit about violence/assassination. I hereby retract my question. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/14 "2006-03-02T22:54:21Z")
> [@Digital Stimulus](#): > > So, if I say “the only way to get rid of corruption in the government is to dissolve Congress”, I can be prosectued for sedition? After all, I would’ve just knowinlgy advocated for the destruction of the US government. No, but if you said “the only way to get rid of corruption in the government is to dissolve Congress _with a bomb_”, then it seems like you would be. IANAL. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/15 "2006-03-02T23:15:34Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You can’t honestly believe that. The hell? Of course I don’t mean that if 50%+1 of the voters want something, it will be instantly enacted. And we have a Constitution that prohibits certain governmental actions, although you can change the constitution democratically. But in our country the government chosen by the people. You don’t have to like what the people decide, but if you advocate killing people who you disagree with then off to jail with you. Or do you think murder is just another legitimate political protest? Why shouldn’t it be a crime to advocate political murder? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/16 "2006-03-02T23:55:25Z")
> [@](#): > > god forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. the people cannot be all, & always, well informed. the past which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive; if they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. we have had 13. states independant 11. years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it’s natural manure. [– Thomas Jefferson in a letter to William S. Smith in 1787.](http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/105.html) I contend this letter would be a violation of the sedition statute in the US code. Anyone care to convince me otherwise? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/17 "2006-03-03T15:44:28Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But in our country the government chosen by the people. Do you honestly believe **that?!** ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/18 "2006-03-03T16:45:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do you honestly believe **that?!** You ever notice that we have a little ritual called “voting”? If you truly believe we live in a fascist police state then I’m done talking to you. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/19 "2006-03-03T16:58:18Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > But in our country the government chosen by the people. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Do you honestly believe that?! You’ve said this several times recently (or a similar theme) in several threads without bothering to explain what YOU believe. Interestingly no one has called you on it. Would you care to explain what YOU believe, if you don’t believe we have free elections or that the government is chosen by the people in this country? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2006, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803/20 "2006-03-03T18:26:45Z")
I see the rationale for wanting to keep sedition illegal, but it still kind of bothers me because it seems to accord the US government(s) a special immunity that we don’t demand in the case of others. For instance, Christian-right leader Pat Robertson recently advocated in public the illegal [assassination of the president of Venezuela](http://hcgtv.com/item/1370), and AFAICT he’s facing no legal penalties for it: > [@](#): > > “We have the ability to take him [Chavez] out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability,” Robertson said Monday on the Christian Broadcast Network’s “The 700 Club.” > > “We don’t need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator,” he continued. “It’s a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with.” > > “You know, I don’t know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we’re trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it,” Robertson said. This seems to be [regarded](http://edition.cnn.com/2005/US/08/23/robertson.chavez/) as just a legal exercise of freedom of speech: > [@](#): > > Bush administration officials Tuesday dismissed Christian broadcaster Pat Robertson’s call for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez as the remarks of a private citizen […] > > State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said Tuesday that Robertson has the right of any private citizen to say whatever he wants But if he had said it about Bush or any other **US** government leader, it would have been sedition. Somehow it seems kind of unsuitable that a nation as committed to freedom of speech as ours should allow that kind of talk about foreign leaders but forbid it in the case of our own. I can certainly see how actively **trying** to attack or overthrow the US government by force, or form or join an organization dedicated to that purpose, ought to be kept illegal. But merely saying that you think it would be a good idea? I dunno. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-sedition-be-decriminalized/346803.md?page=2)