catsix, with due respect, your own experiences in junior high and high school are atypical. An educational system designed to meet your needs would not meet the needs of most children.
Daniel
And what about the needs of kids who are like I was? Are we not supposed to meet their needs because they’re outliers from the average?
Do we take them out of the types of situations where they thrive and put them where they will getless benefit?
Do we assume that because an average student would ‘do well to learn these things’ that it must apply to all students?
The harsh reality is that our educational system is a numbers game. Unless you’re homeschooled, your teachers cannot have an entirely different educational program for you than they have for other children; so teachers (and principals, and superintendents, and committees that set state standards) try to set up a program that will benefit the most children the most, while still allowing for limited customization.
I’ll be a teacher before too long. There may be a student in my class who believes that fiction is stupid, who believes she’ll never read a novel again once she leaves school, who believes it’s a waste of time. I’ll still require her to sit still for read-alouds, to discuss novels, and to submit an entry on the creative writing fourth-grade state test.
There may be another student who thinks health class is stupid, who believse he’ll never have a child, who believes the doll thing is a waste of time. I’ll treat him exactly as I treat the girl who doesn’t like fiction.
Daniel
In my opinion, your teacher should have failed anyone who refused to participate, even if it meant flunking the entire class.
High school is supposed to be the first level of preparation for the Real World, and out in the Real World, your superiors are likely going to ask you to do stupid and pointless tasks. Rebellion will only get you fired.
I disagree with that. A teacher whose entire class is in rebellion is pretty clearly doing something wrong: this is not normal adolescent behavior. The only times I recall tsomething similar ever happening when I was a student, it was with an atrocious teacher.
Rather than failing everyone, the teacher herself should have been put on probation, and a more experienced teacher should have come in and listened to the class’s grievances, given them a fair hearing, and then laid down the law. That, again, is what happened when I was a student and a class went into rebellion.
It’s likely that the teacher in this instance was just doing an otherwise good activity in an extremely stupid fashion. In such a case, the teacher needs to fix her own act while someone else gets the students to fix theirs.
Daniel
In PA those are called IEPs: Individual Education Plans. It was a fairly common thing for kids in my district who were either significantly above or below average to follow an IEP, designed by the school administration and a psychologist, and be removed from the mainstream curriculum when it was beneficial to the student to be placed elsewhere.
Ah yes, the exquisite torture of everyone in the class taking a turn reading out loud, verbatim, from the book. I used to volunteer to go first and use the rest as nap time.
So listen to the students and then change nothing but still fail everyone? Yeah, that would’ve gone over well.
Naturally, a child with an IEP is going to have a different educational plan. These plans, however, do not give the child different areas of study; instead, the’re designed to allow children with emotional or intellectual difficulties (or, presumably, superpowers, although I’ve not heard of them being used in this fashion) to gain more out of their study of the topic than they’d get from the standard class study.
In other words, supergenius kids might get to study infant nutritional needs or the neuroanatomy of developing brains and how it relates to the child’s needs and emotional development instead of carrying the flour bag. They wouldn’t get to study calculus instead.
Ah, no. In educational terms, you’re talking about round-robin reading, which is going rapidly out of style. I see no good reason ever to have round-robin reading: the things it can accomplish can be better accomplished through alternate means. A read-aloud is when the teacher or other competent reader reads a book aloud to the class, demonstrating fluency, cmprehension, prosody, and other good reading habits to the students.
For a college class, for example, all of us were required to give a read-aloud of a children’s book. Some students did so, demonstrating exactly how unfit they are to become a teacher (hint: if you’re reading in a stumbling monotone rife with miscues, consider a career in mall security or in rocket science, but not in teaching). One student read Don’t Let the Pigeon Drive the Bus with such enthusiasm and fluency that she had the whole class shouting joyfully along with the book. For myself, I read a chapter from Treasure Island, and had several students tell me that it was the first time they’d understood why the book was a classic.
Kids need to have books read aloud to them to help them understand how the language fits together to become beautiful. That’s what I was talking about.
Daniel
Back to the OP.
Should sex ed be taught outside the home?
That whole fuckin’ thread is my cite.
Yes. I’ve been a teaching assistant in some college classes where the professor was absolutely clueless about what was a reasonable thing to ask students who were non-majors to do. There does need to be a feedback mechanism so that teachers can learn when they’re not being reasonable.
Part of what you have to do in the Real World™ is letting someone know if they’ve given you a task that’s totally unreasonable to do in the time allotted, or if you think there might be a better way to accomplish a given goal. People who don’t do those things might get along well with egomaniacal managers who don’t want employee input, but they’d drive a reasonable manager crazy.
Actually, what they did was let me skip health class for about four years by putting me into things that were more interesting, like science, math and computer classes. Every gifted student in the district followed an IEP that put them into classes where they were best suited. The students who were really good at art got to go to advanced art classes instead of some of the other stuff that the average kids were forced to do. The learning disabled kids with IEPs went for adaptive learning in the special education department. So no, they’re not just for ‘difficulties’.
No, I pretty much got to study the calculus instead. I did Greek Mythology in elementary school instead of health class and handwriting class.
There’s really nothing more painful than being read to by someone else. It doesn’t move the way I want it to, I get bored, and I take a nap.
Then your district was using “IEP” to refer to something different from what the term refers to in mainstream education. I won’t say they were using it incorrectly, but I will say that they probably were not following NCLB’s guidelines.
As I said, your experience is unusual to the extreme, and I’m not convinced that you’re an accurate self-reporter. I am, however, sure that we’re both thrilled that I’ll never be your teacher.
Daniel
NCLB was passed by Congress and signed into law in 2001. I got my first IEP twenty-two years ago when I was six years old. By the time NCLB came around, I had gone through twelve IEPs (one a year), graduated from high school, graduated from the Pennsylvania Governor’s School for Health Care, and graduated from the University of Pittsburgh.
So please tell me how could my school have been using IEP to refer to something different than ‘mainstream education’ and not following NCLB guidelines that weren’t even thought of yet?
Do you have any basis on which to accuse me of lying about my k-12 education?
Since I am well beyond the years of school where that could ever be a possibility, I can only assume you are insultingly telling me that I’m acting like a fourth grader by telling you what I experienced. I hate to break it to you, but there are a great many people who do not like being read aloud to by anyone else. It starts to become annoying to be read to right around the time that you’re capable of just doing the reading yourself.
This is, in my opinion, likely why books are still vastly more popular than books on tape or books on CD.
Disregard, then, my comments about NCLB.
Well, that gets into the heart of the problems I’m having with you using yourself as an example to refute the idea that sex ed and health classes are unnecessary.
- As evidence to support your argument, pretty much all you’ve offered is anecdotes from your own life. Given my experience with you on these boards, I do not believe that your self-reporting is objective, accurate, balanced, or complete. But for me to go into the reasons why I believe this is true would require saying things that are inappropriate outside of the pit. All I can safely say is that I do not believe the cite is an unbiased one.
- Your argument seems to boil down to the idea that Sex Ed and Health classes are unnecessary, with the evidence being, Look at Me, I Had Neither and I Turned Out Just Fine. Again, I disagree with the conclusions you draw from the evidence, but to disagree with these conclusions would require saying things inappropriate outside the pit.
I think we’d be better off arguing this OP on the merits of objective evidence available from outside sources, not on our personal experiences.
Daniel
Actually, had you been listening, my argument was that forced parenting classes in high school which cut time away from academic pursuits that could be more useful to those who are university/college and career minded and currently have some ability to choose which courses in high school would be most beneficial to them in the future.
I have used myself as an example of one of these students because I know my own experiences better than I know someone else’s. I believe that it is an illustration of a one-size-fits-all solution not necessarily being best to serve the needs of individuals.
Although it is not possible to individualize every single student’s education, perhaps it is possible to offer more of a ‘track’ solution, where there are a limited number of options available and students (with parental signature) have an ability to choose which ‘track’ to take?
You’re going to have trouble in the business world, then. One day, you could be trapped in a meeting, listening to your co-workers read aloud their reports, and many of them won’t be fluent readers. I doubt highly your boss will appreciate your lack of attention.
Being an adult means being bored and doing pointless tasks commanded by a bone-head supervisor who doesn’t give two shits for your opinion about it. It means being treated like a moron, even when you don’t deserve it and having to submit to it cheerfully. It matters little whethe you end up in a factory or an intellectual field-- every workplace has the same idiocies. Your school years are supposed to get you used to that.
You may get away with your I’m-too-smart-for-this attitude while you’re young, but it will serve you poorly in the Real World. I’m sure you’ll reply that you know the difference and you will change your ways overnight when you get out of school, but methinks enough of the aura will linger to make things difficult for you.
I understand what your argument is. WHere’s your evidence that what you suggest is pedagogically sound?
Daniel
You are aware that I am not a child, right?
Really? I’ve always insisted on, and gotten, respect from the people I work for. I didn’t think that was so unusual.
When I get out of school? The degree is hanging on the wall, and the title says Head of Netowrk Administration. You’re not talking to some kid who’s never had a full-time, professional job. Thanks.
The student-selected track system in high school has been working in actual practice in at least one high school that I know of for over 20 years. Should they change it now?
No, I wasn’t. I apologize-- I thought you were still in high school.
I guess it is to me, since I’ve never had to insist anyone respect me. The entire idea seems bizarre. I’m there to do a job, period.
Yes, I’ve had employers who treated me poorly, and knuckle-head bosses who asked me to do stupid things. I did them. I did not argue or try to bring them around to my point of view. If the situation seemed bad enough, I left.
But then again, I have a luxury most don’t-- I can choose where, when, or even** if **I want to work. Most people depend on their job’s income and can’t leave if they’re unhappy.
I’m not saying that you’re this way, but it’s been my experience that people who insist on some ephemeral notion of “respect” are usually the co-workers most difficult to deal with, attitude-wise.
catsix, that’s not evidence, that’s hearsay. What’s this high school, and where can I read documents describing their “student-selected track system,” and where can I see the research showing its pedagogical soundness? This is an Internet discussion, so I’ll ask for online citations for your evidence.
Daniel
Fair enough.
There’s basically one major asshole where I work who I had to demand respectful treatment from. He has an issue with anyone who’s younger than him, and therefore treats a lot of people here badly. He stopped acting like an ass to me when I had a talk with him, and has since been demoted to the point where he has little interaction with me at all.
Right now I’m looking for a new position because I want to work for a bigger organization with a stronger network and more servers and stuff. Although there is always that ability, I do have to work to support myself. I don’t mind that in the least, and although I can’t live without an income, I’m certainly not unable to look for a new position.
In the interest of my privacy, I’m not about to tell you where I went to high school, and even if I did, they don’t publish all of their documents online anyway.