# Should Stanley "Tookie" Williams Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863 "2005-11-27T01:45:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/1 "2005-11-27T01:45:51Z")
Here are excerpts from a recent news story about Stanley “Tookie” Williams. He has been on death row in California for most of his life and his execution date is in December: > [@](#): > > Williams is probably the most prominent death row prisoner in the country – co-founder of the Crips gang, convicted of killing four people in 1979 and then nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize five times in the past five years for his anti-gang work – so his imminent execution also keeps him busy managing a flood of calls, letters and visits. > > (…) > On one side are those against state killings in principle, those who believe that Williams has redeemed himself with his 10 books urging youths to stay away from gangs, and those who argue that Williams, who has always maintained his innocence, should be allowed to reexamine ballistics and other evidence that might be a basis for a new trial. > > On the other side are those who say Williams should die because retributive justice – an eye for an eye – demands it, not to mention those who don’t believe that he has actually reformed. They note that Williams has never owned up to the murders and that while he has achieved fame, his victims have all but been forgotten. > > (…) > > In 1979, Williams was arrested in the slaying of Albert Lewis Owens, a 26-year-old clerk at a 7-Eleven store in Pico Rivera who was shot in the head while lying face down on the floor during a robbery. Police said that a few weeks later he killed Tsai-Shai Yang, 63; her husband, Yen-I Yang, 76; and their daughter, Yee-Chen Lin, 43, during a holdup at their motel in South Los Angeles. > > A shotgun shell found at the crime scene was said to be from a gun purchased by Williams five years earlier, which was under the bed of two associates under investigation for killing their business partner. Their murder charges were dropped after they testified that Williams had confessed to them. Other witnesses included a longtime felon who was placed in a nearby cell while Williams awaited trial. > > Williams’s attorney said that 20 years later, it was discovered that a Los Angeles police officer had left a copy of her client’s file in the informant’s cell for overnight study. Another witness, who was never called to testify, though he implicated Williams as the shooter in the 7-Eleven robbery, has recanted, the lawyer said. > > [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/25/AR2005112500950.html) Personally I do not think he should be executed. When you combine the doubts of a fair trial with the evidence of his rehabilitation and atonement (yes, he disavows commiting the crims but his actions in prison seem to be atoning for starting the gang) it seems that no real justice will be served by executing him. He will still be behind bars for the rest of his life, hopefully continuig to make a positive difference. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/2 "2005-11-27T01:49:06Z")
[thread=346662]I’ve been wondering the same thing.[/thread] 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/3 "2005-11-27T02:29:19Z")
I’m opposed to the death penalty and would be quite happy to see Williams confined to prison for life, but I won’t waste any tears on Williams – he did some terrible things when he was young, and has completely used up any concern I might have about whether he lives or dies. If he’s executed, meh. It’s not like he’s innocent or anything. If California figure out that killing people is wrong, good for California, but I won’t be happy on behalf of Mr. Williams. ---
**Author:** ![Aeschines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aeschines/32/16251_2.png) [@Aeschines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aeschines)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/4 "2005-11-27T02:39:17Z")
Pretty much what **EC** said. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/5 "2005-11-27T02:46:42Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > It’s not like he’s innocent or anything. Did you read the article? Some people think he didn’t do it and they seem to have some good reasons for reasonable doubts. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/6 "2005-11-27T02:50:28Z")
Being _nominated_ for a Nobel peace prize means absolutely nothing. Anyone can be nominated for a prize all you have to do is get any single former recipient, member of a national assembly, university professor, international judge, or special advisor to the prize committee to nominate you. Given that this guy is in the middle of a contentious debate about the death penalty, I wouldn’t be surprised if he was nominated by some politician or professor looking to turn him into a political statement. I’m generally opposed to the death penalty, but I hate stunts like this. After Googling, I see he was nominated by a member of the Swiss Parliament. Why should anyone care? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/7 "2005-11-27T02:52:05Z")
Oh wow, **Larry Borgia]**, I didn’t see it. My apologies… What usually happens in this kind of case? If a thread is to be closed, this one would probably be it since you beat me… :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/8 "2005-11-27T02:54:55Z")
[Ah-nold is considering clemency.](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/26/williams.execution.ap/index.html) ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/9 "2005-11-27T02:55:02Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Oh wow, **Larry Borgia]**, I didn’t see it. My apologies… What usually happens in this kind of case? If a thread is to be closed, this one would probably be it since you beat me… :smack: Eh, this one’s getting replies, so if a mod wants to close mine, I’m cool with that. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/10 "2005-11-27T06:59:55Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Did you read the article? Some people think he didn’t do it and they seem to have some good reasons for reasonable doubts. What was the name of that gang he started? The Crips? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/11 "2005-11-27T07:14:43Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > What was the name of that gang he started? The Crips? He’s not being executed for founding the Crips. He’s being executed for committing four murders. Based on the linked article the evidence convicting him is pretty weak. I’m against the death penalty but I don’t weep for your McVeighs or your Bundys. I am concerned with cases like this. Life without parole, that’s a different story, but I don’t want the state executing people on such flimsy evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/12 "2005-11-27T17:42:36Z")
from the article > [@](#): > > Williams’s attorney said that 20 years later, it was discovered that a Los Angeles police officer had left a copy of her client’s file in the informant’s cell for overnight study. If this is true, that the police helped a person study the case file so that he would be able to testify, then I think the whole case should be thrown out and Williams should walk. Corupt officials manufacturing evidence is a much bigger problem than a murderous gang leader, imo. ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/13 "2005-11-27T18:08:59Z")
This is a MAJOR topic of discussion on a L.A. radio talk show. Anyone who’s ever listened to [John and Ken](http://www.johnandkenshow.com/) won’t be surprised as to which side of the debate **they’re** on. There was even a pro-Tookie/anti-John and Ken rally. It featured some of the most inarticulate activists I’ve ever heard. ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/14 "2005-11-27T18:30:36Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > He’s not being executed for founding the Crips. Part of the fear, I think, is that he _is_ being executed for starting the Crips, that is that juries and cops were willing to overlook the flimsiness of the murder evidence because they knew he was a bad guy who started a vicious gang. That said, does anyone have a link to a site giving the other side of the story. I think the editorial that was linked by the OP was rather one sided. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/15 "2005-11-27T18:40:57Z")
> [@blondebear](#): > > This is a MAJOR topic of discussion on a L.A. radio talk show. Anyone who’s ever listened to [John and Ken](http://www.johnandkenshow.com/) won’t be surprised as to which side of the debate **they’re** on. There was even a pro-Tookie/anti-John and Ken rally. It featured some of the most inarticulate activists I’ve ever heard. Do the hosts, or anyone else, attempt to present the evidence for the prosecution’s case? Do they attempt to show that a murder conviction and a death penalty was reasonable given the prosecution’s evidence. I’m really just asking here. I agree with **Malodorous** that the Post’s article seemed a bit off. The writer seemed infatuated with Williams. Googling doesn’t help much either as all the results I’ve pulled regard Wiliams as either a sub-human monster or a water walking saint. I’d regard him as a monster too, if I could hear a better argument for the prosecution. Does anyone have a line on the prosecution’s defence of their conviction? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/16 "2005-11-27T18:59:50Z")
Through Wikipedia I just found the prosecution’s response to the clemency petition. It’s a long PDF. [http://da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/swilliams.pdf](http://da.co.la.ca.us/pdf/swilliams.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_H](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a5b964/32.png) [@Bill\_H](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_H)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/17 "2005-12-03T10:01:12Z")
The Prosecution Response that **Larry Borgia** posted is very interesting. Up until I read it I’d only heard the other side of things and frankly felt that the evidence against Williams wasn’t very substantial. This doc makes it pretty clear the evidence was damning. Further, this response makes it clear that these weren’t accidental deaths, but truly heinous crimes. Truly the sorts of crimes that if we’re to have a death penalty, these are the sorts of crimes you have it for. He killed four people purely because they were witnesses. In each of the four cases, the victims were passive. Afterwards he laughed about the victims to friends describing how they made gurgling sounds after he shot them at close range. At his trial and sentencing, he threatened the jury. While he was in jail awaiting trial, he plotted an escape which would’ve involved killing multiple people, including other prisoners so that while the authorities were trying to figure out which inmates had died, he’d have a longer headstart. Also at this time, he plotted to kill one of his accomplices because he was a witness. Further, it points out that contrary to Williams claims, this wasn’t an all-white jury, that there was a black on it who (like the rest of the jury) voted to convict and for the death penalty. Where before I thought there was a possibility he didn’t commit these crimes, I now feel confident that he did. And so where before I thought it was reasonable that he swear innocense today, I now feel he isn’t in any way rehabilitated if he can’t even accept responsibility and apologize to the victims families. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/18 "2005-12-03T15:07:01Z")
Yeah, I’m opposed to the death penalty on general grounds, which means I’m opposed to it for Ted Bundy and Tim McVeigh. But I didn’t mourn for Bundy or McVeigh when they died, and after reading that document, I’m not going to be mourning for Williams either. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/19 "2005-12-03T17:12:15Z")
> [@John\_Stamos'\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Did you read the article? Some people think he didn’t do it and they seem to have some good reasons for reasonable doubts. Yeah- but as the founder of the Crips he is certainly guilty of murders and being acessory to murders. I am personally drifting form pro-death penalty to againt, but as has been said before, I wouldn’waste too many tears on this guy… ---
**Author:** ![Malodorous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e47774/32.png) [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/20 "2005-12-03T18:06:06Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > Yeah- but as the founder of the Crips he is certainly guilty of murders and being acessory to murders. You can’t hang (or even charge) someone based on a wishy washy “he founded a gang, surely he must’ve commmited a murder or two”. He needs to be convicted of a specific crime. If he’s found to have been fasely convicted of that specific crime, then we can’t go ahead and hang him because we’re pretty sure he is (or was) a bad person. That said, I agree that it does look like he was given a fair trial and the evidence against him is solid enough to uphold the conviction. > [@BillH](#): > > And so where before I thought it was reasonable that he swear innocense today, I now feel he isn’t in any way rehabilitated if he can’t even accept responsibility and apologize to the victims families. I disagree. He may simply maintain his innocence because he wants to live, and thinks that creating doubt as to wheather he commited the crime is the best way to do that. In any case, he certainly seems to have done a few good works in prision, and I don’t pretend to know deep down inside weather he regrets his previous wrongs. In anycase, no good is served by killing him, and any chance of his being rehabilitated is lost if he’s put to death. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863.md?page=2)