# Should Stanley "Tookie" Williams Die? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863 "2005-11-27T01:45:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/61 "2005-12-12T02:39:27Z")
Great way to stick to the OP topic Maureen. Moving on, I fundamentally disagree with the death penalty but I am not impressed with Mr. Williams. He shows zero remorse, he is still involved with the Crips street gang and is still a menace to society. I would not grant him clemency. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/62 "2005-12-12T02:43:06Z")
My, my, aren’t we testy. I asked if it’s been proven that he’s still ordering murders from prison. The person I asked it of hasn’t answered (I’m assuming **Dr. Deth** has more of a life than I do and was out and about today). Since you seem to agree he still poses a threat, perhaps you’d care to explain it? ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/63 "2005-12-12T04:28:09Z")
I was more refering to the comments about the current governor or California. His handling of the media is not really relevant to the topic at hand. Your request for a cite or some other evidence that Williams is still directing the gang from prison is a legitimate and reasonable one. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/64 "2005-12-12T18:05:40Z")
That he was doing so was part of a prepared statement by the Prison Authorities. AFAIK, it is not in dispute. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/65 "2005-12-12T18:11:59Z")
I wonder how many of the Tookie-besotted celebs have given a farthing’s worth of attention (or money) to the families of Tookie’s victims. I read that the (26-year-old?) store clerk who was mercilessly gunned down left behind a wife and two kids who had to grow up without their daddy. I wonder what became of them… ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/66 "2005-12-12T18:12:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That he was doing so was part of a prepared statement by the Prison Authorities. AFAIK, it is not in dispute. It’s in dispute here. I’ll be astonished if it’s not in dispute elsewhere. I remember seeing that statement. It was self-serving and biased on the part of the prison authorities. (As should be expected.) I see no reason to believe it without proof. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/67 "2005-12-12T18:24:28Z")
One from the Right wing press: [http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20380](http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20380) Despite his alleged turnaround, prison officials state Williams is still involved with the Crips, directing action from his jail cell for the past eleven years. San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon notes Tookie still maintains an “unusually large bank account,” being mailed checks 50 or 100 times larger than those other inmates (like Scott Peterson) receive. Not only has he never admitted guilt in the murder – much less expressed any remorse – and continues to consort with Crips in prison. And one from the left: [http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/crime\_courts/13189808.htm](http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/crime_courts/13189808.htm) “By 1994, having firmly entrenched himself as the leader of the Crips at San Quentin, he wielded his power as his lieutenants and other minions were dispatched to carry out his objectives,” according to the release. Although some who support Williams have decried Crittendons’ statements, so far, none has disputed them, AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/68 "2005-12-12T18:34:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > One from the Right wing press: > > [http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20380](http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=20380) > Despite his alleged turnaround, prison officials state Williams is still involved with the Crips, directing action from his jail cell for the past eleven years. San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon notes Tookie still maintains an “unusually large bank account,” being mailed checks 50 or 100 times larger than those other inmates (like Scott Peterson) receive. Not only has he never admitted guilt in the murder – much less expressed any remorse – and continues to consort with Crips in prison. Well, the bank account _is_ in dispute as evidence that he leads the Crips. His supporters maintain that well-wishers send him money. Should there be evidence that gang members are sending him his share of the loot, that would be something, but there isn’t. I shan’t argue that he has admitted guilt or expressed remorse - he hasn’t - but that does not demonstrate leadership of the Crips. How does he consort with Crips in prison? Are not Death Row inmates isolated from the general population? None of this proves anything. > [@](#): > > And one from the left: > > [http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/crime\_courts/13189808.htm](http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/news/local/crime_courts/13189808.htm) > “By 1994, having firmly entrenched himself as the leader of the Crips at San Quentin, he wielded his power as his lieutenants and other minions were dispatched to carry out his objectives,” according to the release. > > Although some who support Williams have decried Crittendons’ statements, so far, none has disputed them, AFAIK. This news story (especially your quote) is actually from the same source: the California Corrections Department. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/69 "2005-12-12T19:08:16Z")
I guess I’m not entirely convinced that the California Department of Corrections would be that pushed to lie about it. Put another way, the burden of proof is on Mr. Williams to either show that they are wrong or that there is a conspiracy against him. I have’nt seen anything to suggest that. Drdeth provided citations from two legitimate sources, can you respond with the same? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/70 "2005-12-12T19:23:14Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Drdeth provided citations from two legitimate sources, can you respond with the same? Both of his quotes were based on the same source: the California Corrections Department. A comment from a former warden, contained in the second cite: > [@](#): > > Daniel Vasquez, who served as warden at San Quentin from 1983 to 1993 and wrote a letter supporting clemency for the last death row inmate executed, said he had never seen such an inflammatory statement in a news release from the prison. > > “It’s like they’re trying to drum up business for death row,” he said. If the prison is attempting to demonstrate that Williams does not deserve clemency because he is still leading and directing gang activities from Death Row, then my view is that the burden of proof lies upon them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/71 "2005-12-12T19:36:18Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > This news story (especially your quote) is actually from the same source: the California Corrections Department. So? From my earlier post “That he was doing so was part of a prepared statement by the Prison Authorities”. Both cits rely upon the same source- the prepared statement by the Prison Authorities. I’ll point out that this “A comment from a former warden, contained in the second cite: Quote: Daniel Vasquez, who served as warden at San Quentin from 1983 to 1993 and wrote a letter supporting clemency for the last death row inmate executed, said he had never seen such an inflammatory statement in a news release from the prison.” is not a counter cite to mine. Mr Vasquez- although his dislikes that statement by Crittendon, is not disputing the facts contained in it. I’ll echo Lochdale- there’s two cites- from opposites ends of the politcal rainbow. Please come up with one that disputes the truth of my statement. I agree that many don’t like that statement. Oh, and from the 1st cite- for those who claim that Tookie has reformed"And he’s never helped the one force that could effectively stop the Crips: the Los Angeles Police Department. Tookie Williams has revealed nothing about the personnel, practices, or operational structure of the gang he co-founded. In his writings, he boasts he “underwent many years of soul-searching and re-education, without ‘debriefing’ (another word for ‘snitching’).” Snitching, he says, would “rip my dignity out of my chest” – an unfortunate image for a man who shot (at least) four people through the torso at close range." There it is - in Williams own words. He refuses to do the one that that would really help stop gang violence. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/72 "2005-12-12T19:45:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > He refuses to do the one that that would really help stop gang violence. I agree with that. I am also, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, sorely disappointed in Williams’ decision not to acknowledge his crimes and express remorse. I feel that these two items will weigh heavily in Gov. Schwarzenegger’s decision. I absolutely do not understand why you are so insistent on stating that Crittendon’s statement is not countered. Your second cite spends some time refuting its points. I also do not understand why you point out that your cites are from different ends of politics when the quote you chose from both of them came from the prison. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are attempting to prove? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/73 "2005-12-12T20:40:39Z")
Arnold has spoken. Tookie is a goner. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/74 "2005-12-12T20:59:51Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Arnold has spoken. Tookie is a goner. The jury spoke 24 years ago. Hopefully the predicted riots are overblown media hype. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/75 "2005-12-12T21:20:15Z")
[hasta la vista, baby!!](http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=5153) :rolleyes: oh c’mon! For it or against it, don’t tell me you weren’t thinking about that line! ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/76 "2005-12-12T21:31:54Z")
In light of the overwhelming evidence of his guilt and his lack of remorse for the crimes he is being executed for, I am not surprised that he was denied clemency. Even if I personally were governor, he would probably be one of the the last guys whose death sentence I’d commute… and he’d only get it because I’d do a blanket commutation of every death sentence to life imprisonment on general principles. But he’d be somewhere near the bottom of the clemency list to reflect that he’s not particularly deserving (there might be some worse murderers in california, so I don’t know who’d get a less honorable spot) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/77 "2005-12-12T21:34:14Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I absolutely do not understand why you are so insistent on stating that Crittendon’s statement is not countered. Your second cite spends some time refuting its points. > > I also do not understand why you point out that your cites are from different ends of politics when the quote you chose from both of them came from the prison. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are attempting to prove? The _slant_ on the statements (as you pointed out, the 2nd cite spends some times disputing them) differs a great deal. That’s why I gave two cites- even though the basic statement remains the same- _how_ it is reported varies quite a bit depending on who writes the article. ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/78 "2005-12-13T13:49:29Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > [hasta la vista, baby!!](http://www.allhiphop.com/hiphopnews/?ID=5153) > > :rolleyes: oh c’mon! For it or against it, don’t tell me you weren’t thinking about that line! nope ☹ i see no humor…i suppose you will meet your own death with a pithy one liner? ---
**Author:** ![zuma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e9c0ed/32.png) [@zuma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zuma)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/79 "2005-12-13T14:12:25Z")
byebye, tooks, we hardly knew ye. good riddance. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863/80 "2005-12-13T15:00:07Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > nope > > i see no humor…i suppose you will meet your own death with a pithy one liner? If I’m lucky, I’ll meet mine with a pithy one-liner, and the funeral will be a whole comedy routine. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-stanley-tookie-williams-die/332863.md?page=5)