# Should statues of Washington, Jefferson, and Grant be removed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 23, 2020, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321 "2020-06-23T10:51:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/62 "2020-06-23T17:10:47Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Californian schools like Jefferson, Washington are [already being renamed](https://edsource.org/2020/california-districts-look-to-rename-schools-linked-to-racist-past/634080). So for talk of Washington or Jefferson statues being taken down, isn’t so farfetched. And the flip side of that - if these districts have someone they want to honor, schools named for Jefferson or Washington shouldn’t be above being re-named. We need to stop judging historical figures by current standards. Nancy Pelosi was wrong to remove the portraits of Speakers who also fought for the confederacy - if the display had ALL of the former speakers of the house, then they should be included because they were elected speaker of the house and held that position. The biggest difference between statues of Washington and statues of Lee are that monuments to Washington were put up to honor a man who helped create the country; monuments to Lee erected in the 20th century were put up to remind blacks that they are sub-human. No monument to Washington was ever erected to celebrate that he was a slave owner. ---
**Author:** ![lobotomyboy63](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobotomyboy63/32/2900_2.png) [@lobotomyboy63](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lobotomyboy63)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/63 "2020-06-23T17:13:09Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > I have no idea if they exist, but how would you feel about a statue of Bill Cosby. > > Certainly cannot argue that he wasn’t influential. He broke down a bunch of racial barriers in entertainment and in the home. He was also hilarious. “Noah, how long can you tread water?” I still find that line funny, even with everything. > > But, he also has a few other notable attributes on the negative side of things, which, IMHO, outweigh those he is honored for. Yeah, Bill… > **[Bill Cosby Statue Removed From Disney World Resort](https://variety.com/2015/biz/news/bill-cosby-statue-removed-disney-world-1201535903/)** > > A Bill Cosby statue has been removed from Walt Disney World Resort near Orlando, Fla. The bronze bust was taken down from Disney’s Hollywood Studios theme park on Tuesday night, a spokesman told NBC News. An online petition calling for the statue’s... With a lot of people considered “heroes,” only time will tell. Mother Teresa has won the Nobel Peace Prize. She has also been criticized as colonial, racist, and other things. > **[Public image of Mother Teresa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mother_Teresa)** > > Catholic nun and missionary Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu, commonly known as Mother Teresa and known as Saint Teresa of Calcutta since 2016, has a complicated public image. She has been widely admired by many for her charitable work, which lead to her being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize "for work undertaken in the struggle to overcome poverty and distress, which also constitutes a threat to peace". During her life she was highly celebrated, receiving multiple awards and honorary degrees, as well as c Sh... ---
**Author:** ![Wrenching\_Spanners](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ecb155/32.png) [@Wrenching\_Spanners](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wrenching_Spanners)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/64 "2020-06-23T17:26:39Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Can you flesh this out a little bit? Is it your position that progressives have no room for nuance in their world view? Can you cite some prominent progressives that want the Lincoln Memorial removed? Not the Lincoln Memorial, but Angela Rye is a prominent liberal commentator who wants statues of Washington and Jefferson removed. > **[CNN analyst: tear down George Washington and Thomas Jefferson statues](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8413185/CNN-analyst-calls-remove-George-Washington-Thomas-Jefferson-statues-owned-slaves.html)** > > CNN commentator Angela Rye has called for all statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson to be taken down because the men they enshrine were slave owners, she said. > **[Angela Rye](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Rye)** > > Angela Rye (born October 26, 1979) is the Principal and CEO of IMPACT Strategies, a political advocacy firm formerly based in Washington, DC. She is a special correspondent on ESPN. > She was (until November 2020) a liberal political commentator on CNN. > She served as the executive director and general counsel to the Congressional Black Caucus for the entirety of the 112th Congress. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/65 "2020-06-23T17:39:12Z")
Thanks! I never heard of her, but she has a better resume than I do, that’s for sure. I wonder what Obama (either one) or Winfrey has to say about it. No one speaks for all black people, but they are about as prominent as it gets. If they make the case that statues to Jefferson are offensive, I’ll be willing to listen. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/66 "2020-06-23T17:52:05Z")
Again, what does it matter if Obama and Oprah don’t find them offensive? That doesn’t automatically make them not offensive to other people. Obama and Oprah aren’t out there toppling statues. Endorsing statue toppling will result in statues toppling. Not saying anything will result in statues toppling. The only thing they could do, that maybe, MAYBE would change anything, is a forceful denunciation of statue toppling, which not only will not happen, but probably would not make a difference anyway. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/67 "2020-06-23T18:12:47Z")
I was responding specifically to **Wrenching Spanners** , who kindly provided a cite of at least one at least somewhat prominent progressive who is advocating removing those statues. I hadn’t heard of anyone prominent advocating such, so it was interesting to me. I’m curious about what other prominent African Americans think. I have yet to see any prominent person advocating “statue toppling”, and I also don’t advocate that. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/68 "2020-06-23T18:15:46Z")
What exactly is it that you are wanting here? For no one at all to be talk about being offended by a statue? There are people out there with many different opinions on many different things, and this concentration on the most extreme, and demanding that they either be justified or stopped, is pretty much a textbook definition of nutpicking. There will be people will have negative opinions of anyone who was well known enough to be fixed into stone or metal. That will not change, no matter what you, I, or even progressive leaders do. If you ignore the leaders, and focus only on the most extreme of followers, then you are going to end up with a rather skewed point of view. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/69 "2020-06-23T18:21:52Z")
Seriously, that’s what happens when all your news sources try to maximize outrage rather than inform. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/70 "2020-06-23T18:22:06Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > at least somewhat prominent progressive who is advocating removing those statues Oh? Is writer, civil rights activist and BLM promoter [Shaun King](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_King) prominent enough for you? He not only wants the statues removed, he recently additionally tweeted support for removing all depictions of a “European Jesus” in churches. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/71 "2020-06-23T18:23:06Z")
Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/72 "2020-06-23T18:23:06Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > The Confedearates who have statues and memorials honoring them were traitors. All that bullshit about “war of northern aggression”, and “states rights” was and is just a smoke screen. The treasonous secession and the civil war against their own country was all about slavery, and was even in writing. The statues themselves were mostly put up in the early 1900s by revisionists, and as part of a deliberate propaganda campaignn and Jim Crow intimidation tactics. They ALL need to be torn down, and the military bases named after Confederate traitors need to be renamed. We need to stop glorifying an ENEMY. Nobody’s arguing that we shouldn’t be taking down monuments and statues meant to glorify and commemorate the Confederacy and Confederates. The question at hand is really whether or not we need to take down every statue of anyone historic who ever owned a slave or fought for the Confederacy, even if their statues are there for accomplishments unrelated to their Confederate service. People are products of their time. By 2020 standards, I suspect a lot of the “good guys” of the Civil War era were hopelessly racist vs. black people, Native Americans, Mexicans, etc… And almost certainly against LGBTQ people and concepts. Does that mean that none of their achievements are valid or worth celebration? My university is currently engaged in an imbroglio about a statue of a very influential early President of the school- one of two men who truly shaped the course of the university. He also advocated for Texas A&M and Prairie View A&M (first historically black university in Texas) when there was a push in Austin to shut both schools down. He also founded the first school for deaf and blind black youth (Texas Blind, Deaf and Orphan School), and appointed a black man as president. He also was the first governor to decree that Arbor Day would be observed in Texas. The catch? 20-30 years before, he had been a Confederate General at the venerable age of 26, and a Texas Ranger commander before that. All of which apparently negates everything else he did. 🙄 And some of our idiot athletes are now fanning the flames claiming that he’s a POS because he didn’t push to integrate the schools in the 19th century. As if that was even an option at the time for an elected official. But that doesn’t matter, and it apparently doesn’t matter that he did a lot of good for the state and university, it only matters that he was on the wrong side in his youth. This kind of scares me; no historical figure is ever going to live up to that kind of absurdity if it’s taken seriously. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/73 "2020-06-23T18:27:02Z")
> [@bump](#): > > The catch? 20-30 years before, he had been a Confederate General at the venerable age of 26, and a Texas Ranger commander before that. All of which apparently negates everything else he did. 🙄 I don’t care at all about this person, but Confederate General is pretty damning. This is easily rephrased as “all he did was become a traitor and take up arms against the United States of America.” One could argue that he made up for it, but that’s a pretty damning history. I guess I don’t understand why all the leaders (generals, president, etc.) weren’t tried and hung for treason. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/74 "2020-06-23T18:27:39Z")
If the interpretation and significance of historical events and figures is open for debate (which it always is), then one should expect and welcome debate about whether or not monuments celebrating and “immortalizing” those figures and events have a place in the public square. This goes as much for the Lincoln Memorial as it does for statues of Confederate McGee. We should welcome this debate always, because it makes a lot of sense. Calling one position “extreme” shows a failure to understand what is even being talked about. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/75 "2020-06-23T18:28:53Z")
I’m not sure at this point what it is that you are objecting to. Is it that people want these statues removed and replaced with something that better reflects contemporary values? Or is it the people that are removing statues as a mob, without the consent of the community? I am not seeing what you are seeing that makes the first so reprehensible, and I’m not seeing examples of the second among anyone that has any level of prominence or notoriety. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/76 "2020-06-23T18:29:45Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > Oh? Is writer, civil rights activist and BLM promoter [Shaun King](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaun_King) prominent enough for you? He not only wants the statues removed, he recently additionally tweeted support for removing all depictions of a “European Jesus” in churches. About time. Thank god! ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/77 "2020-06-23T18:37:42Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t care at all about this person, but Confederate General is pretty damning. This is easily rephrased as “all he did was become a traitor and take up arms against the United States of America.” One could argue that he made up for it, but that’s a pretty damning history. I guess I don’t understand why all the leaders (generals, president, etc.) weren’t tried and hung for treason. The argument here isn’t that he was or wasn’t a Confederate general, but rather that he’s commemorated for his university-related activities, NOT for being a Confederate. Or for that matter, not because he was a Governor, Texas Ranger or state Senator either. That’s the crux of the matter; his statue has nothing to do with his Confederate service, and everything to do with stuff he did 30 years later. AFAIK, he wasn’t a slave owner either, just a professional soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/78 "2020-06-23T18:39:54Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you ignore the leaders I’m not ignoring the leaders. The only prominent people really talking about this conservatives. Pelosi is removing stuff from the capitol as we speak. And crickets everywhere else. To my knowledge, Joe Biden isn’t saying anything, nor Obama, nor Oprah nor any other person. And they’d be smart not to! > [@k9bfriender](#): > > Is it that people want these statues removed and replaced with something that better reflects contemporary values? That’d be a nice start I suppose! Who’s the arbiter though? Many people don’t like Columbus, but Cuomo won’t remove it because something about Italian heritage. I guess it’s a good thing it’s pretty high up and would be a bitch to pull down. > [@](#): > > I am not seeing what you are seeing that makes the first so reprehensible, and I’m not seeing examples of the second among anyone that has any level of prominence or notoriety. Okay, so lets get anyone of prominence or notoriety saying one thing or another. People on the left of course, because people on the right apparently don’t count. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/79 "2020-06-23T18:40:42Z")
I can’t speak for slavery in other cultures, but certainly in Biblical law, children of slaves were slaves. If it wasn’t universal, it certainly wasn’t unique to antebellum America. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/80 "2020-06-23T18:57:58Z")
> [@Ashtura](#): > > I’m not ignoring the leaders. The only prominent people really talking about this conservatives. That’s because their news sources specialize in outrage, rather than information. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2020, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321/81 "2020-06-23T19:02:35Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > That’s because their news sources specialize in outrage, rather than information. Fine. So where’s the information? It is a known fact that statues are being torn down of Jefferson, Washington, Columbus, Grant, etc. Yet, when asked what “prominent” democrats think about it, _I_ have to tell YOU. Meaning, there’s virtually NO information about it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-statues-of-washington-jefferson-and-grant-be-removed/912321.md?page=5)