# Should students be punished for recording their instructors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 9, 2016, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301 "2016-12-09T20:19:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/21 "2016-12-10T02:49:24Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Sure. And the student might end up learning that breaking the law has consequences. > > What’s your point? Do you have anything to add on the actual question raised in the OP? Should the recording of professors be allowed? Is this a clear-cut issue, or are there pros and cons on both sides of the debate. If it won’t tax you too much, maybe you could take a stab at some actual debate in Great Debates. > > Of course, the OP didn’t help by offering basically nothing in the way of debate in the first post of the thread. All we have so far is a link, a quick and partially accurate summary of the incident, and a question. In my experience, the people who start GD threads in such a manner generally aren’t really looking for an intelligent debate at all; they just want to rant but can’t be bothered to put their grievance in the Pit. Yes. Record away. There is no expectation of privacy in a college classroom. Even when I was in college taping and video were common. I never once heard a student ask permission. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/22 "2016-12-10T03:21:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yes. Record away. There is no expectation of privacy in a college classroom. There’s no expectation of privacy, but in California, there’s clearly an expectation of recording only happening with permission. Surely you don’t deny that. > [@](#): > > Even when I was in college taping and video were common. I never once heard a student ask permission. I never saw a student ask a professor for an extension, either, but I’m pretty sure it happened, just not when I was around. What you saw and what you didn’t see has very little bearing on the ethical and legal issues that this case deals with. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/23 "2016-12-10T03:34:14Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yes. Record away. There is no expectation of privacy in a college classroom. Even when I was in college taping and video were common. I never once heard a student ask permission. They ask me in private. Perhaps you weren’t privy to those conversations. And there can be an expectation of privacy depending on how a class is managed. And there are rules about when you can record someone. Plus it is simple curtesy, which not a bad thing for students to learn. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/24 "2016-12-10T04:06:39Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > They ask me in private. Perhaps you weren’t privy to those conversations. > > And there can be an expectation of privacy depending on how a class is managed. And there are rules about when you can record someone. > > Plus it is simple curtesy, which not a bad thing for students to learn. Perhaps. Hey if enforcing law is optional and arbitrary for states and cities don’t be surprised when others adopt that point of view. Point is, in today’s society you can’t expect privacy. Ask Hulk Hogan. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/25 "2016-12-10T04:09:25Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > There’s no expectation of privacy, but in California, there’s clearly an expectation of recording only happening with permission. Surely you don’t deny that. > I never saw a student ask a professor for an extension, either, but I’m pretty sure it happened, just not when I was around. What you saw and what you didn’t see has very little bearing on the ethical and legal issues that this case deals with. [http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-recording-law](http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-recording-law) According to this the conversation has to be confidential. I doubt a lecture at a university is confidential. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/26 "2016-12-10T05:58:47Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > [California Recording Law | Digital Media Law Project](http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-recording-law) > > According to this the conversation has to be confidential. I doubt a lecture at a university is confidential. Did you totally miss the fact that, in California, **there’s a specific section of the Education Code that makes the issue of confidentiality irrelevant?** :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/27 "2016-12-10T06:32:40Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Why don’t you do some work first? All we have from you so far in the thread is an incorrect answer based on an irrelevant reference to wiretapping laws, and a dumb, content-free broadside at the teachers’ union. > > I’ve already provided a pretty good idea of my general thinking on the matter. If you want to participate intelligently in this debate, i’d be happy to discuss the issue with you. Lay out some of your own positions, and your reasoning, and i’ll gladly respond. I don’t believe my answer was incorrect. The question was “Shouldn’t a student be allowed to record or even protest what a professor says?” and my answer was “Yes”. Frankly, I don’t see how a “what is your opinion” question can have an incorrect answer. I was contributing to the discussion by providing some information about one-party vs all-party states. You may be aware that people that have been arrested / charged under these wiretapping laws for recording conversations. I appreciated the insight you offered, and the detail you provided about California state law. As you noted, the teachers union probably provided “input” and advocated for the creation of the law. I think the law is a bad one, and don’t agree with those that advocate for it, because it leads to situations like this, where someone was trying to share with the public something rather egregious that had happened in their classroom, and they end up getting slapped with sanctions for it. I would’ve thought teachers and their union would have greater appreciation for the free and open exchange of information than they seem to be showing in this case. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/28 "2016-12-10T06:36:48Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > As i pointed out, in the post right above yours, there is such a rule. It’s actually a part of the state law, and the rule is apparently also a part of the Code of Conduct at this particular student’s institution. > > And why would he sue the union? They didn’t write the law. The legislators in Sacramento did that. Admittedly, they probably had input from faculty and teacher unions when doing so, but you don’t get to sue someone just because they advocate a policy that you don’t like. I didn’t see you post. That’s a terrible law. It makes actions illegal on some unclear basis leaving a school to take action when violated by a student. He needs a lawyer. There’s nothing in that law that gives the teachers union standing to sue him or take action. He needs to fight this. There’s no harm done to the school or the teacher by his actions except through their own actions. I can’t imagine the law is constitutional even under the state constitution. The student should be suing the school for allowing such incompetence from a teacher. And he should be suing the union for threatening his ability to continue his education at that school for which he was otherwise obviously qualified for since he was there. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/29 "2016-12-10T07:42:43Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Yes. Record away. There is no expectation of privacy in a college classroom. Even when I was in college taping and video were common. I never once heard a student ask permission. Yeah, when i’m offering advice about legal issues such as expectations of privacy, i also generally rely on my personal anecdotal information about things that i never heard other people ask about. :rolleyes: In my experience from years of driving, speeding is common, as is rolling through Stop signs. I guess that means those things are also legal. And, as **DSYoungEsq** has noted, you keep ignoring the fact that there’s a very specific law that is directly on point in situations like this, and that renders moot the broader questions of confidentiality and expectation of privacy that are covered by things like wiretapping statutes. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/30 "2016-12-10T09:09:03Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I don’t believe my answer was incorrect. The question was “Shouldn’t a student be allowed to record or even protest what a professor says?” and my answer was “Yes”. Frankly, I don’t see how a “what is your opinion” question can have an incorrect answer. I was contributing to the discussion by providing some information about one-party vs all-party states. You may be aware that people that have been arrested / charged under these wiretapping laws for recording conversations. The “Yes” part of your answer was fine. As you note, an opinion is something you are entitled to. But your point about the wiretapping laws was beside the point because those are not the laws in play here. I am well aware that people have been arrested and charged under these laws, but if there is a specific law against recording instructors, then the question of one-party vs all-party, and the question of expectation of privacy, becomes largely moot in a case like this. > [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I appreciated the insight you offered, and the detail you provided about California state law. As you noted, the teachers union probably provided “input” and advocated for the creation of the law. I think the law is a bad one, and don’t agree with those that advocate for it, because it leads to situations like this, where someone was trying to share with the public something rather egregious that had happened in their classroom, and they end up getting slapped with sanctions for it. I would’ve thought teachers and their union would have greater appreciation for the free and open exchange of information than they seem to be showing in this case. I have a few thoughts on this issue. First, i think the law itself is probably not ideal. But if the law is bad, then most anti-wiretapping laws are bad, because there are plenty of other instances of wiretapping where the person doing the recording might be seeking to “share with the public something rather egregious.” Under your characterization of the law, i would be justified in leaving a recording device in the office or home of another person, as long as the details it revealed could be reasonably defined as being in the public interest. On the more general issue of recording teachers and professors, i’m somewhat ambivalent. As i said earlier, i don’t think i’ve ever said anything in a classroom that would justify a call for disciplining me or terminating my employment. I take my responsibilities as a teacher seriously. I would certainly never make a political statement like the one that was recorded in this instance. If my students recorded my lectures, i probably wouldn’t care very much. Some have probably done it in the past. In an ideal world, recording would be allowed and unproblematic. And yet, there are also some relatively persuasive reasons to require a teacher’s permission. One is the general sense that an employee’s every word should not necessarily be open to publicizing and scrutiny by outsiders who might not be motivated by professional standards. While we should conform to the standards of professionalism required by our academic disciplines and by our institutions, the fact that we’re public employees does not make us public property. Of course, in saying this, i run the risk of appearing inconsistent. I have supported, on this very message board, the right of citizens to record police officers going about their duties in public, arguing that it is in the public interest, and that law enforcement should have no expectation of privacy in the actions they take as officers on the streets of our society. One might ask that if this position is tenable regarding police, then why not for professors? One argument is that the level of authority and real power held by the two groups is not really comparable. When police come into contact with citizens, the officer often controls the situation, and in many cases (such as traffic stops), the citizen has no choice but to remain and comply. This isn’t really true of educational institutions. And in some important ways, i think that the public interest served by exposing bad police officers is more compelling than that served by exposing teachers and professors who might say something stupid but still, in many cases, might also do a good job. Another reason to require permission for recording has to do with the privacy of other students, as raised by me and by **IvoryTowerDenizen** earlier. Even if you are willing to argue that i, as a public employee in a university classroom, have no expectation of privacy, it’s very hard to make that argument about the students in my class. In fact, their privacy rights are explicitly protected against certain types of exposure by federal law. If a student in my class makes a stupid or ignorant comment, i might laugh about it to myself later, but i don’t expose the student to ridicule by telling the world what he said, or posting it on Facebook; at least, not in any way that can identify the specific student in question. My classroom discussion does not usually involve students sharing a lot of private and personal information about themselves, but sometimes they connect their personal experiences to the historical issues that we discuss. I had a student some time back tell me about his uncle’s experiences being drafted to fight in Vietnam. I’ve had students talk about their experiences as undocumented immigrants. I have students describe facing racist insults. I’ve have students talk about their families’ histories. Other types of classes sometimes encourage even more personal contributions by students. I think these students deserve some protection. And, while this isn’t really my major concern, the fact is that i hold copyright in my lectures. They take time and effort and research and expertise to prepare; i don’t just walk into class a talk about whatever pops into my head. I would prefer that my intellectual property not be recorded and (possibly) disseminated by anyone who knows how to work a smartphone. There’s also the more general issue of what we want universities to be. While i know that some conservatives believe that they are performing a public service by exposing all the liberal and lefty professors (see the [Professor Watchlist](http://www.professorwatchlist.org/index.php)), it seems to me that efforts to “out” people like this, and recording like the one that inspired this thread, are also designed to limit and curtail the sort of academic freedom that is such an important part of higher education. They are, in some cases at least, designed more to intimidate than to shed real light. We also need to distinguish between particular instances that might be exposed through a recording like this, on the one hand, and a teacher’s more general level of professionalism and competence, on the other. I think that what this particular person said was inappropriate for a college or university class. As i said, i would never make a similar statement in my classes. At the same time, i don’t think that, by itself, the statement disqualifies her from any claim to being a good, professional college instructor. If she teaches the her subject matter competently, and if she grades her students fairly, and if she does the other stuff that we expect in the classroom, then it really could be that this one outburst might not really matter very much. Of course, the obvious counterargument is that a teacher who says stuff like this probably lets her politics influence other things like her treatment of students and her grading. But i’m not sure that necessarily the case, and nor does it mean that teachers who _ **don’t** _ say stuff like this are automatically above suspicion. I go out of my way to suppress many of my own political leanings in my class, in order to create an atmosphere where all students feel comfortable learning, but that doesn’t mean that my political ideology simply ceases to exist. As long as you apply the proper standards of evidence, and are willing to evaluate seriously viewpoints that differ from your own, i happen to believe that political commitment is perfectly compatible with good, professional, objective historical scholarship and teaching. Historian Thomas Haskell makes this case in a [compelling article](https://books.google.com/books?id=47XnQnB9FnUC&lpg=PA145&ots=WgGnZ3fIyw&dq=haskell%20objectivity%20is%20not%20neutrality&pg=PA145#v=onepage&q&f=false). All of that might not add up to a very satisfying response, especially if one is seeking a simple yes or no answer to the question of whether recording should be allowed. But the problem is that situations like this are often not especially amenable to simple (simplistic?) binary options, and that we are left with the fact that the messy complexity of these social and political problems might leave us without easy answers. My general position could probably be summed as: the law prohibiting students from recording teachers without consent is a reasonable law, but teachers should be encouraged (and perhaps required) to give consent unless there is a compelling reason not to do so in a particular case. And when consent is given, it should be only for the personal use of the student, in the pursuit of education. That’s about as specific as i can be, i’m afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/31 "2016-12-10T13:28:52Z")
Thank you, **mhendo**. Thinking back on some of my smaller college classes, I can see the presence of absence of recording changing the tone of the student conversation, although that’s separate from recording the teacher. And I hadn’t thought of the copyright issue, although I’m not sure an off the cuff rant from the OP counts. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/32 "2016-12-10T13:48:04Z")
Some jurisdictions enacted laws prohibiting the public from audio or video recording police. In the court challenges to arrests under these laws, almost every federal circuit has ruled that the videotaping of public officials is an exercise of First Amendment liberties. Would that reasoning apply here? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/33 "2016-12-10T14:15:51Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > The other reason is pedagogical. In my experience, some students who like to record lectures tend to see the recording as an alternative to taking notes, and to use the recordings as a crutch to substitute for arriving at their own understanding of the material. i was a good student as an undergraduate, and the reason i did well was that i paid attention, took good notes, and thought about the connections between different lectures and different time periods and subjects. That’s what i want my students to learn, and i think that recording lectures can actually get in the way of that. To address this point - people learn differently. My daughter has ADHD and they used to have a principal who made them take Cornell notes (specifically Cornell notes) and they were then graded. With her form of ADHD she can’t both take notes and comprehend the material. She could ace the test - and have a blank notebook - or she could have a full notebook and do poorly on the test. Now, she doesn’t record anyone, because she won’t take the time to listen, but that is a valid reason to record - and if she were to ask and explain, I’m sure you or ITD would give her permission. (I’m trying to get her to come home and then jot her memories of her classes down in a notebook to cement them - her memory is really good. And Dr. CornellNotes has moved on. My conversation with him about the different learning styles of people was…nonproductive…since “statistically, students who use Cornell Notes outperform.” What my kids going to High School has taught me is the high school administrators seem to self select for idiocy. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/34 "2016-12-10T14:21:54Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Some jurisdictions enacted laws prohibiting the public from audio or video recording police. > > In the court challenges to arrests under these laws, almost every federal circuit has ruled that the videotaping of public officials is an exercise of First Amendment liberties. > > Would that reasoning apply here? Of course it should. This is clearly an attempt to prevent people from gathering evidence of actionable behavior. Wiretapping laws should of any kind should only apply to people outside of the conversation. Any party in a discussion should be able record the conversation for any reason, but especially as proof of threat, harassment, intent to violate law or civilly actionable statements. There is no legitimate reason to prevent te recording of a teacher doing their job. This is not at all about a stranger or unauthorized government intrusion into private conversation. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/35 "2016-12-10T14:27:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Some jurisdictions enacted laws prohibiting the public from audio or video recording police. > > In the court challenges to arrests under these laws, almost every federal circuit has ruled that the videotaping of public officials is an exercise of First Amendment liberties. > > Would that reasoning apply here? Well, there is the copyright problem as well. And in the case of police body cams, the issue of privacy of the citizenry has been raised on keeping those non-public unless there is an approved request. I wouldn’t necessarily want the cops to come to my house because my neighbors thought we were having a domestic disturbance when we were really just engaged in loud sex play with the windows open (oops!) - and then have us answering the door and explaining the situation out on the internet. I took a few seminars in college where the class size was very small and the conversations very personal (I have a women’s studies minor - I think you can imagine). ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/36 "2016-12-10T15:33:45Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Well, there is the copyright problem as well. I don’t agree that the copyright issue creates a problem. This is not my area of law. But my understanding is that there are considerations to be weighed in deciding whether a use of copyrighted material constitutes “fair use” laid out in 17 U.S.C. § 1: [ul] [li]Purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes[/li][li]Nature of the copyrighted work[/li][li]Amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole[/li][li]Effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work [/li][/ul] With respect to purpose and character, transformative use – when a work is not copied for similar use but changed to serve some other purpose – is strongly favored when it comes to fair use determination. “Nature of the work,” favors factually-based works over purely creative works. Amount and substantiality – fair use is more likely when the amount used is small in relation to the entire body of work. For these reasons I’d offer the initial opinion that copyright is not infringed by these types of expos‰‰é recordings. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/37 "2016-12-10T15:45:38Z")
I thought the right wing was appalled by the enforcement of political correctness in the classroom. Was I wrong about that? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/38 "2016-12-10T15:58:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > For these reasons I’d offer the initial opinion that copyright is not infringed by these types of expos‰‰é recordings. If I went to see a public speaker (a motivational speaker, or an expert in their field, or a famous politician, or whatever) (or my company brought one in to speak to the employees), would I be allowed to record their performance? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/39 "2016-12-10T16:20:57Z")
Privacy and intellectual property are two arguments against recording in class that have already been well-addressed by **mhendo** and others. One other that I haven’t seen in this thread yet is the danger of a recording taking an instructor’s words out of context; [Here’s how “Dean Dad” explains it in his “Confessions of a Community College Dead” blog](http://suburbdad.blogspot.com/2016/03/privacy-and-context.html): > [@](#): > > Every so often a story breaks in which a student secretly recorded a professor saying or doing something in class that seems ridiculous or offensive on video. > > I say “seems” because I used to teach poli sci. When teaching a course on political ideologies, for example, I’d cover marxism, fascism, libertarianism, monarchism, and anarchism, among other things. To help students understand how a given idea worked, I’d role-play someone who believed it. It wouldn’t be for the entire period, and it would change from week to week. But if you didn’t have that context, it would have been easy enough to excerpt five minutes of video from, say, fascism week, and to insinuate all sorts of things. With the loss of the ability to frame the information comes the loss of the ability to protect it. I’d be a lot more hesitant to do something like that now, even though it led to some great classroom moments. > > It’s similar to showing five minutes of a murder mystery, and accusing the actor of murder. Out of context, it could look like that. But context matters. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2016, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301/40 "2016-12-10T16:28:52Z")
Some background on California’s Education Code §78907: The section was originally enacted as part of the comprehensive overhaul of the Education Code in 1976 (Statutes 1976, Chapter 1010). It was the last section in a series of code sections dealing with prohibited acts by textbook manufacturers to influence choice of textbooks in California’s colleges. As originally enacted, it read: > [@§78907](#): > > The Legislature finds that the use by any person, including a student, of any electronic listening or recording device in any classroom of the secondary schools without the prior consent of the instructor and the president of the college given to promote an educational purpose disrupts and impairs the teaching process and discipline in the community colleges, and such use is prohibited. Any person, other than a student who willfully violates this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. > > Any student who violates this section shall be subject to appropriate disciplinary action. > > This section shall not be construed as affecting the powers, rights, and liabilities arising from the use of electronic listening or recording devices as provided for by any other provision of law. Now, the fact that this section is buried among a series of code sections dealing with instructional materials is to me indicative of the true purpose: you weren’t supposed to be able to record professors because then that would impact the ability of the professor to make money off his/her official lecture notes/recordings. Of course, I could just be being cynical. It’s also possible that the bit about being disruptive of the education process goes back to the turmoil of the 60s and 70s on California’s college campuses. If a professor knows that they are being taped, and that their commentary could become disseminated by those who oppose any viewpoint the professor espouses, that would have a chilling effect upon the willingness of a professor to espouse controversial viewpoints. Which, of course, we really don’t want to do; it’s the fact that college students get exposed to a variety of viewpoints on a campus that makes college so helpful to stretching their minds. In 1990, the Legislature again made wholesale revisions to the Education Code. In addition to consolidating §§78900-78906 into one section, §78907 was amended to read: > [@§78907](#): > > The use by any person, including a student of any electronic listening or recording device in any classroom without the prior consent of the instructor is prohibited, except as necessary to provide reasonable auxiliary aids and academic adjustments to disabled students. Any person, other than a student, who willfully violates this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor. > > Any student violating this section shall be subject to appropriate disciplinary action. > > This section shall not be construed as affecting the powers, rights, and liabilities arising from the use of electronic listening or recording devices as provided for by any other provision of law. Note the change: all classrooms in the state are now covered. Now, my personal opinion as an educator who worked in a classroom is that efforts to restrict recordings by the now ubiquitous phone cameras is doomed to failure. I operated on the assumption from my first day in the classroom as a teacher in 2007 that anything I said could and would be recorded without my knowledge. It’s swimming up a very fast and powerful river to continue to try and restrict such things. What are we going to do when the power of something like Google Glass® is literally implanted in our eyes? But the code section in question does, indeed, appear to make what the student did at Orange State College against the law. Note that, as a student, it merely opens him/her up to disciplinary proceedings by the college. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-be-punished-for-recording-their-instructors/774301.md?page=3)