# Should students get 6 months in jail for saying the word 'Jesus'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 5, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612 "2003-11-05T20:32:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/61 "2003-11-07T14:37:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Monty \* > \*\*You should write for the wnd. What is prohibited is someone coopting the government sponsored major event of other people in order to showboat their religion. The Consitution is very clear on why that’s not permitted. But go ahead and keep on pretending it’s not. \*\* So the “right” of someone in the audience to not be offended trumps the student’s right to freedom of speech. Sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/62 "2003-11-07T14:50:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Balle\_M \* > \*\*So the “right” of someone in the audience to not be offended trumps the student’s right to freedom of speech. > > \*\* do you really believe that is the issue? That student has free speech. They can stand on the street and announce their beliefs at the top of the lungs. They write and distibute pamphlets, write to the papers, post online, meet and discuss with others _on their own time_. See, the graduation ceremony isn’t their own time. it’s the public school’s time, which kinda makes it a government sponsored event. _That’s_ the issue. It comes off as an official endorsement of Christianity. I asked a question of **Shodan** a few posts up. Maybe you could read it and answer it also. I would like your opinion on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Balle\_M](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/13edae/32.png) [@Balle\_M](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balle_M)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/63 "2003-11-07T19:58:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spooje \* > \*\* > I asked a question of **Shodan** a few posts up. Maybe you could read it and answer it also. I would like your opinion on the matter. \*\* If the question is: “Would you say “Hey, let the kids say what they want. The Muslim speaker, too. They’re the majority, after all.” Or would you have some qualms about it? Would you feel differently if your child was a student there? I’d like to know.” I’ve already indicated that I believe in free speech. If the Validictorian decided to wear a Shriner’s fez and attribute her success to her worship of Cthulhu, at worst I’d nudge Ms. Balle\_M and mumble, “Jeez…what a nutjob.” I would NOT run crying to the first judge I could find and whine about being offended. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/64 "2003-11-07T22:46:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Balle\_M \* > So the “right” of someone in the audience to not be offended trumps the student’s right to freedom of speech. > > Sweet. Well, instead of making a dishonest characterization of my posting, you could haul off and realize that the rest of the crowd also has rights–and that’s what the judge is issuing his orders to protect. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/65 "2003-11-08T04:04:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > **Someone who “grabs” you and forcibly detains you is guilty of assault and battery, and unlawful detainment.** Hmm, yes, but (at least in this state) finding a cop willing to make the arrest, a DA willing to prosecute, and a jury willing to convict are another matter. Even if I _could_ manage to do all of that, I’d be screwing myself. Why? Because in this state there’d be a media frenzy over the whole business, and I’d immediately lose my job. (My boss being a devout Christian.) Now, sure I could sue him, and I’d no doubt win (eventually). However, since it’s taken me three bloody years to a get a job in the industry I’m interested in, and since the media spectacle would make it well-nigh impossible for me to get another job in the field (at least in this state), I think I’ll pass. I’ve been homeless and I’ve done without food in the past, it’s not something I care to repeat. \*\* > [@](#): > > Atheists have killed millions of religious believers\*\* Ah, but they haven’t had _quite_ the run of it that religion has had, now have they? You’ve got the various Soviet dictators, potentially Adolf Hitler, a few scattered throughout history and that’s pretty much it. The Catholic Church _alone_ is responsible for a goodly number, and when you factor in the other branches of Christianity, Islam, Judism, Hinduism, and Zoasterians (to name but a few) I’d say that the blood on religions hands is greater than that of atheism. \*\* > [@](#): > > and Madlyn Murray-O’Hair was a major-league asshole.\*\* I’ll see your Madlyn Murray-O’Hair and raise you a Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jim Jones, and Franklin Graham.\*\* > [@](#): > > This has exactly zero to do with whether or not mentions of atheism should be forbidden in public. > How often does this need to be said?\*\* So, it’s okay with you if a student gets up a graduation ceremony and says, “There is no God, you pathetic losers!”? Using a _state sponsored function_ which is **not** intended to have a discussion about theology, but is merely a celebration of those who’ve managed to show up the required number of days for 13 years? \*\* > [@](#): > > _No one has the right to say, “I don’t like your ideas, and therefore you are not allowed to express them in public”._ You don’t have the right not to be upset in a public forum.\*\* Are you familiar with the phrase “hate speech”? I _do_ have the right, if the ideas which are being expressed are morally repugnant to me to complain, and if those ideas are of a religious nature, in a state sponsored setting, and are given with the _expressed_ desire of “furthering the message” by an elected official, then _that_ is an attempt at state sponsored religion, and is quite clearly _against_ the Constitution. And lest you cry that the Founding Fathers of this country were Christians, you should take a gander at this passage from Thomas Jefferson’s autobiography > [@](#): > > “[A]n amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.” > > – Thomas Jefferson, 1821 \*\* > [@](#): > > The judge is subjecting speech to a religious test. Some kinds of religious speech is allowed, and others forbidden. \*\* As others have shown far better than I: Wrong. \*\* > [@](#): > > “Congress shall make **no** law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” Not “just a few laws”, or “unless it will upset people”, or “unless it will shut up those obnoxious folks that we don’t like anyway”. **No** law. > > The government may **not** forbid using the name of Jesus in public. Nor Allah, nor Stalin, nor Robert Ingersoll. > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* It _can and does_, when those expressions are used by elected officials to foist a state sponsored religion on the populace. Oh, and **don’t** assume that because I agree with the judge that I’m an atheist. I **do not** discuss my religion with other folks. That way, I’m only _slightly_ annoying, instead of incredibly annoying. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/66 "2003-11-09T12:23:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Balle\_M \* > \*\*I’ve already indicated that I believe in free speech. If the Validictorian decided to wear a Shriner’s fez and attribute her success to her worship of Cthulhu, at worst I’d nudge Ms. Balle\_M and mumble, “Jeez…what a nutjob.” I would NOT run crying to the first judge I could find and whine about being offended. \*\* Thank you for the response. For what it’s worth, that’s the way I’d react to it, too. But I get a little nippy about what I percieve as the hypocritical reaction from some of our Christian brothers and sisters. I ain’t naming no names [sub]coughjeryyfallwellbilloriellypatrobertsoncough[/sub], but some of them would be absolutely _livid_, on the verge of coniption, if Allah or Jehova were honored in such a way, or if the Torah or Quaran (sp?) were read from in such a ceremony in front of _their_ kids. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/67 "2003-11-09T12:58:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*Hmm, yes, but (at least in this state) finding a cop willing to make the arrest, a DA willing to prosecute, and a jury willing to convict are another matter. > \*\* I am sure there must be any number of ACLU lawyers who are slavering for cases such as the one you claim. If it were me being kidnapped and held for hours, I would be a little more likely to follow thru. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\* So, it’s okay with you if a student gets up a graduation ceremony and says, “There is no God, you pathetic losers!”? \*\* Apart from the last three words, yes. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\* Are you familiar with the phrase “hate speech”? > \*\* I am indeed. It has nothing to do with a student expressing religious faith in public. > [@](#): > > ## \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* \*\*quote: > > ## The judge is subjecting speech to a religious test. Some kinds of religious speech is allowed, and others forbidden. > > As others have shown far better than I: Wrong. > \*\* So a judge determining that some prayers are allowed, and others prohibited, is not a religious test of speech? Prayers are clearly speech. The judge has clearly set up a test. The test is clearly religious, since the judge expressly defines it as such. Which part of this syllogism do you contest? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tuckerfan \* > \*\*It _can and does_, when those expressions are used by elected officials to foist a state sponsored religion on the populace. > \*\* You mean like a judge determining which prayers in public are OK and which are forbidden? He is sponsoring a certain form of religion, and foisting it on the populace. Or are you arguing that students are elected officials? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/68 "2003-11-09T17:22:54Z")
**Shodan** : > [@](#): > > You mean like a judge determining which prayers in public are OK and which are forbidden? Yes- the judge determined that non-denominational prayers were OK and was laying out guidelines for what was acceptable. The key word is **non-denominational** , which you don’t seem to acknowledge. As I stated before, the type of prayers that you’ve given as examples of acceptable under his ruling are **not** non-denominational and while they may not violate the letter of the judges specific examples, they sure violate the spirit. I’d be willing to bet that if you gave a school prayer thanking Mohammed and were cited for contempt, your “but he’s not a deity!” excuse wouldn’t wash. No, I don’t have a cite for this. And there’s a lot of stuff that falls under free speech that isn’t allowed at a graduation ceremony. If they want to stand out in the parking lot and thank Jesus (or their deity of choice) they’re allowed to do that. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/69 "2003-11-09T17:50:57Z")
Shodan is right: this is a dubious religious test, and it is not acceptable. It isn’t the government’s business to determine what SORT of religious activity is acceptable and what isn’t, whta constitutes non-denominational, and what doesn’t. It’s the government’s business to stay out of religious matters entirely, not to become an expert on theology. Judges are not qualified to rule on matters of theology, nor are they empowered to do so. > [@](#): > > Tuckerfan: Ah, but they haven’t had quite the run of it that religion has had, now have they? You’ve got the various Soviet dictators, potentially Adolf Hitler, a few scattered throughout history and that’s pretty much it. The Catholic Church alone is responsible for a goodly number, and when you factor in the other branches of Christianity, Islam, Judism, Hinduism, and Zoasterians (to name but a few) I’d say that the blood on religions hands is greater than that of atheism. The Catholic Church, at least directly, can’t claim more than a few hundred thousand, though obviously that figure changes depending on what you consider to be their fault. However, one could easily aruge that in many cases their acts had more to do with politics than religion. However, if we distinguish between someone merely being an atheist and being killed in the name of anti-religion, then Hitler et al’s count diminishes quite a bit as well. Further, lives aren’t the only things of importance: both religious and anti-religious regimes created climates of terror and intimidation for non-believers and believers both. This is not really a useful endeavor, however, this counting up of crimes. it’s irrelevant to the subejct. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/70 "2003-11-09T19:25:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*I am sure there must be any number of ACLU lawyers who are slavering for cases such as the one you claim. \*\* Perhaps, but despite impressions to the contrary, the ACLU is _not_ a fat cat organization and they are highly selective of the cases they handle. They’re not going to jump on every case which they feel violates the law. Indeed, the time I spoke to them, they recommended that I speak to a private attorney if I wanted a response in a short period of time. (Gee guys, if I had the money to speak to a lawyer, I wouldn’t be calling you.) \*\* [/quote] If it were me being kidnapped and held for hours, I would be a little more likely to follow thru.\*\* [/quote] Who said anything about hours? \*\* > [@](#): > > I am indeed. It has nothing to do with a student expressing religious faith in public. > So a judge determining that some prayers are allowed, and others prohibited, is not a religious test of speech? > > Prayers are clearly speech. The judge has clearly set up a test. The test is clearly religious, since the judge expressly defines it as such. Which part of this syllogism do you contest? > > You mean like a judge determining which prayers in public are OK and which are forbidden? > > He is sponsoring a certain form of religion, and foisting it on the populace. Or are you arguing that students are elected officials? > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* Frankly, I can’t add anything better than what **Mojob** has said, at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/71 "2003-11-10T01:11:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Shodan is right: this is a dubious religious test, and it is not acceptable. It isn’t the government’s business to determine what SORT of religious activity is acceptable and what isn’t, whta constitutes non-denominational, and what doesn’t. It’s the government’s business to stay out of religious matters entirely, not to become an expert on theology. Judges are not qualified to rule on matters of theology, nor are they empowered to do so. \*\* While I would like the Court to rule that “ceremonial deism” is a dodge and just rule the whole thing UnConstitutional, kick out the Congressional Chaplains and knock off all the prayers, I don’t think that’s going to happen anytime soon. Kent’s ruling in this case was essentially that a non-denominational prayer fit the mold a ceremonial deism, like the opening prayers in the Supreme Court or “In God We Trust” on the money. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/72 "2003-11-10T12:40:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mojo_ - \*\* > Yes- the judge determined that non-denominational prayers were OK and was laying out guidelines for what was acceptable. \*\* Precisely. The judge decided that certain kinds of prayers were acceptable, and no others. Which is a religious test, an establishment of religion, _and_ an interference with the free practice of religion, all rolled into one. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/73 "2003-11-10T14:08:57Z")
WRONG again **Shodan**. Ceremonial Deism. The tradition is why it is allowed at graduation ceremonies but not at football games. I disagree and think it should be banned in both places; but at least it’s better than having an Altar Call at graduation. Something about “protected from establishment clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/74 "2003-11-10T14:20:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*Something about “protected from establishment clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content.” \*\* Which is pretty much an inevitable circumstance when a religion becomes associated with a government. It’s a very simple philosophical (rather than chemical) reaction… **government corrupts religion**. It rots it. It empties it of all meaning and significance. Every time religion has reached out to take the government’s hand, it’s been made a tool of that government. You’d think the religious people clamoring for government recognition and favoritism would realize this and react strongly _against_ such a mingling. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/75 "2003-11-10T15:04:45Z")
**Shodan** , how was it an interference with the free practice of religion? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/76 "2003-11-10T15:15:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Homebrew \* > \*\*WRONG again **Shodan**. > > Ceremonial Deism. The tradition is why it is allowed at graduation ceremonies but not at football games. I disagree and think it should be banned in both places; but at least it’s better than having an Altar Call at graduation. > > Something about “protected from establishment clause scrutiny chiefly because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content.” \*\* You aren’t making any sense. If they are having altar calls at a graduation, then it isn’t ceremonial deism. If it has lost meaning thru rote repetition, then it should be just as allowable at a football game as at a graduation. And when you call for banning public prayer, you are interfering with the free practice of religion. As I said, this is a particularly stupid ruling, with something in it to offend against the rights of practically everyone. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/77 "2003-11-10T16:12:56Z")
This ruling is in line with the Supreme Court’s ruling in several cases and specifically lines up with Brennan’s concurrance in _Abington Township v. Schempp_ about Ceremonial Deism. It was upheld by the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals. It was not a stupid ruling. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/78 "2003-11-11T00:52:40Z")
Plessy v. Ferguson was upheld, too. Of course it is a stupid ruling. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![\_possum\_stalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/b77776/32.png) [@\_possum\_stalker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_possum_stalker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/79 "2003-11-11T02:52:26Z")
WorldNewsDaily is run by Joseph Farrah. who started it as a Clinton scandal sheet funded by the[Western Journalism Center](http://www.westernjournalism.com/mission.html), which he co-founded. The WJC is funded in turn by [Richard Mellon-Scaife](http://www.publiceye.org/conspire/clinton/Clintonculwar8-06.htm), the billionaire who made Clinton-bashing into a growth industry. The WJC is the organization that brought the world all the half-baked Vince Foster suicide mystery bullshit. So the OP cite is prolly inflammatory nonsense- has anyone found any independent confirmation of law-enforcement activity against Jesus-talkers? This is the second thread in as many days **hydro** has opened with a nutty-right cite, then jumped out of the bullring (the previous was the famed “Ann Coulter: Goebbels with tits” exchange). **Hydrocortizone** , what’s your honest opinion? Do you think students should get (etc.)… word ‘Jesus’? Do you think there was ever serious danger of prison time over this one? Or is it more of a ‘do not remove this label under penalty of law’ kinda thing? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2003, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612/80 "2003-11-11T03:18:58Z")
So, \*\*Shodan[/b[, are you willing to give up the Congressional Chaplains, Invocations, “In God We Trust” on the money and “Under God” in the Pledge? Because those are allowed as Ceremonial Deism. Otherwise they’d be disallowed. There’s only one way to go with this issue. You get what you got or you give it all up. Personally, I’d like to see it all go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-students-get-6-months-in-jail-for-saying-the-word-jesus/211612.md?page=5)