# Should suicide be a human right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2013, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010 "2013-06-27T03:37:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LilyoftheField](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/13edae/32.png) [@LilyoftheField](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilyoftheField)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/41 "2013-07-01T22:20:17Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am one of those old people (75) who enjoys life and will continue to do so until I pass. See, here’s the thing - you can’t really know that. I think that it’s great that you continue to enjoy life up into your old age (and I don’t think its a stretch to call 75 ‘old age’) - but how can you possibly know that you will continue to enjoy life as you do now ‘until you pass’??? how can you possibly know that? You don’t know that, you just make an educated guess, based on how you’ve done up til now and that’s great…but, I’m sorry. You don’t really ‘know’. any of a number of unforeseen things could happen to you between 75 and ‘passing’. You could fall, or get in a car accident, or stand too close to a bomb on a city street, or get hit by a bus, or get a chronic debilitating disease, or have a stroke - well, I could go on but you get the idea. You can’t predict all the possibilities. And you can’t predict what effect any of those things might have on your love of life. And, of all the possibilities, you also can’t predict which might result in permanent pain and/or disability and/or mental incapacity. So, I’m sorry, but it seems to me to be very smug and complaisant to say something like 'I’ll always enjoy life - ‘cuz that’s just the kind of person I am!’ Maybe you do have psychic abilities. Maybe you can predict the future for yourself. I wish I could… But, otherwise - I’m sorry but I just can’t let you get away with the whole 'I’m 75 and I feel great and I love life - so there’s no excuse for the rest of you guys not to feel the same way! ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2013, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/42 "2013-07-01T22:24:58Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t remember being born but others do, you can find them on the web under Pre-Birth Experiences. We do know about the afterlife in the same way. I just don’t see any connection between (1) and what I wrote. Ok, so I, too, believe that our spirits/souls/higher selves choose to incarnate. I think we do this repeatedly, and before each lifetime we chose our “lesson plan” for this incarnation. So? Sometimes the lesson is, “wow, I really fucked that up and need a do-over.” Sometimes the lesson is, “Pain sucks.” Sometimes it’s “Compassion = Love = Divine”. Now, I don’t believe in a Creator who micromanages our lives or chooses our lessons for us (I believe we’re all part of that Creator, or Divine), so maybe that’s where we part theologies. I believe that if I chose to be born, that’s even \*more \*reason why I should be able to choose when to die. I wrote the lesson plan, I choose when to take the final and register for the next class. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/43 "2013-07-02T00:33:37Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It should be, yes. Granted it does cause tons of pain and suffering for family and friends, and their suffering will be amplified after the person dies. But they aren’t the ones who have to suffer the way the individual in question suffers. If a person has to suffer, they have a right to end the suffering. Either way, someone will be in pain and miserable. > > For philosophical reasons, the connection between suicide and mental illness, and the harm suicide causes to those around the person who commits it suicide will likely never be seen as a right. But it should be. You have no idea how selfish suicide really is and the pain it causes those left behind. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/44 "2013-07-02T00:38:39Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Ok, so I, too, believe that our spirits/souls/higher selves choose to incarnate. I think we do this repeatedly, and before each lifetime we chose our “lesson plan” for this incarnation. > > So? > > Sometimes the lesson is, “wow, I really fucked that up and need a do-over.” Sometimes the lesson is, “Pain sucks.” Sometimes it’s “Compassion = Love = Divine”. > > Now, I don’t believe in a Creator who micromanages our lives or chooses our lessons for us (I believe we’re all part of that Creator, or Divine), so maybe that’s where we part theologies. I believe that if I chose to be born, that’s even \*more \*reason why I should be able to choose when to die. I wrote the lesson plan, I choose when to take the final and register for the next class. You got it right, we choose to come into the physical and we choose to leave the physical after we have completed our lives and not before. It is not sometimes bad and sometimes good. We choose what it will be and if it is bad we know we are not making the right choices. Love, compassion is the goal. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/45 "2013-07-02T00:44:44Z")
> [@LilyoftheField](#): > > See, here’s the thing - you can’t really know that. I think that it’s great that you continue to enjoy life up into your old age (and I don’t think its a stretch to call 75 ‘old age’) - but how can you possibly know that you will continue to enjoy life as you do now ‘until you pass’??? how can you possibly know that? You don’t know that, you just make an educated guess, based on how you’ve done up til now and that’s great…but, I’m sorry. You don’t really ‘know’. > > any of a number of unforeseen things could happen to you between 75 and ‘passing’. You could fall, or get in a car accident, or stand too close to a bomb on a city street, or get hit by a bus, or get a chronic debilitating disease, or have a stroke - well, I could go on but you get the idea. You can’t predict all the possibilities. And you can’t predict what effect any of those things might have on your love of life. > > And, of all the possibilities, you also can’t predict which might result in permanent pain and/or disability and/or mental incapacity. So, I’m sorry, but it seems to me to be very smug and complaisant to say something like 'I’ll always enjoy life - ‘cuz that’s just the kind of person I am!’ > > Maybe you do have psychic abilities. Maybe you can predict the future for yourself. I wish I could… > > But, otherwise - I’m sorry but I just can’t let you get away with the whole 'I’m 75 and I feel great and I love life - so there’s no excuse for the rest of you guys not to feel the same way! You really don’t have anything to do with how I feel and what my future will bring. That will be my choice not yours. I was miserable for almost 50 years until I found out how everything works. Now I can say I will live the rest of my life in love and feel great doing it and mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/46 "2013-07-02T14:00:34Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > We need millions like you, because you care and that is what matters. Thanks, **lekatt.** I do care. Maybe you have learned how to have a powerful store of energy for caring. I haven’t. One thing I have learned is not to take on another person’s grief. It’s something no one else can work through but them. Sometimes the best gift you can give a troubled person is allowing them to own their own pain. It’s a good motivator. Better than holding hands and listening. The two together should give a person a boost if there is consistency and hope. Emotional pain is a gift. It’s your body telling you that something needs to be changed. Yeah? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/47 "2013-07-02T16:54:47Z")
> [@Tethered\_Kite](#): > > Thanks, **lekatt.** I do care. Maybe you have learned how to have a powerful store of energy for caring. I haven’t. > > One thing I have learned is not to take on another person’s grief. It’s something no one else can work through but them. > > Sometimes the best gift you can give a troubled person is allowing them to own their own pain. It’s a good motivator. Better than holding hands and listening. > > The two together should give a person a boost if there is consistency and hope. > > Emotional pain is a gift. It’s your body telling you that something needs to be changed. Yeah? Yes I agree. I can empathize and still not take on their pain. I lay out a program for them to follow and if they are willing to follow it I continue with them. I am always there when they wish to talk within reason. When you see a young person bound on wanting to kill themselves turn that energy into love and caring for others it is truly a thing of beauty, a miracle. It makes all the months of helping and caring worthwhile. Thanks for helping. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/48 "2013-07-02T16:57:08Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes I agree. I can empathize and still not take on their pain. I lay out a program for them to follow and if they are willing to follow it I continue with them. I am always there when they wish to talk within reason. When you see a young person bound on wanting to kill themselves turn that energy into love and caring for others it is truly a thing of beauty, a miracle. It makes all the months of helping and caring worthwhile. Thanks for helping. You still haven’t explained why all these would-be suiciders come to you in particular for help. Are you a professional therapist that they seek out or are referred to? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/49 "2013-07-02T18:53:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You still haven’t explained why all these would-be suiciders come to you in particular for help. Are you a professional therapist that they seek out or are referred to? Just lucky I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/50 "2013-07-02T18:56:55Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Just lucky I guess. How about a _real_ answer? What causes them to seek you out? Are you a therapist? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/51 "2013-07-02T20:32:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about a _real_ answer? What causes them to seek you out? Are you a therapist? Do you need help? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/52 "2013-07-02T20:43:29Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Do you need help? Non responsive answer noted. I’ll just mark this down as yet another in a long line of unsubstantiated fantastic claims of yours. In the meantime, if somebody actually contemplating suicide actually seeks you out for some bizarre reason, I hope you will do the right thing and point them to a licensed professional. ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/53 "2013-07-02T20:55:44Z")
Yes. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/54 "2013-07-02T21:49:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Non responsive answer noted. I’ll just mark this down as yet another in a long line of unsubstantiated fantastic claims of yours. In the meantime, if somebody actually contemplating suicide actually seeks you out for some bizarre reason, I hope you will do the right thing and point them to a licensed professional. You follow me around from thread to thread and ask the same questions over and over again. I answer you and then you post misinformation about what I said usually the same post over and over again and again. I have answered this question before also. I don’t know what you want from me. I am going to be who I am the rest of my life and I am going to continue helping others as long as I can. Most who ask for my help have already been through “professional” counseling for years with no results. There are no secrets to life you either choose to love or you choose to fear. I choose to love and yes I love you also. ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/55 "2013-07-02T22:28:02Z")
**Czarcasm** , brushing off his shoulders and arms: “Argh! Now I got girl germs all over me.” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/56 "2013-07-03T11:45:17Z")
> [@lankyBlonde](#): > > Wow. I am shocked by your ignorance, stupidity, and logic. > . . . > Are you trolling mate? Do not resort to name calling outside The BBQ Pit and do not accuse others of trolling outside The BBQ Pit. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/57 "2013-07-03T11:51:02Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You still haven’t explained why all these would-be suiciders come to you in particular for help. Are you a professional therapist that they seek out or are referred to? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > How about a _real_ answer? What causes them to seek you out? Are you a therapist? lekatt has a point. Digging into his personal life does nothing to promote the discussion of this topic. You already know, in advance, that you are going to dislike the answer he provides, it is not germane to the discussion, and it is going to result in one more messy hijack. You are never going to change his views (any more than he will change yours), so stick to discussing the actual topics of the threads in which you find yourselves rather than trying to undercut his arguments by trying to “expose” him in some way. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Alba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alba)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/58 "2013-07-03T13:13:25Z")
I believe you should have the right to end your own life if you’re not able bodied or of able mind. As is the case in the Netherlands. There is a whole trajectory involving multiple doctors and visits before they will assist in ending your own life. Thinking suicide is selfish shows lack of compassion and the inability for empathy. Demanding someone to live out their miserable and painful life for your benefit is extremely selfish. I would even go as far as to stretch that if you are able bodied and of able mind you should have the right to end your own life. Nobody should be allowed to demand of you to live. ---
**Author:** ![Alba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Alba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alba)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/59 "2013-07-03T13:16:31Z")
– ---
**Author:** ![Tethered\_Kite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a5b964/32.png) [@Tethered\_Kite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tethered_Kite)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010/60 "2013-07-03T13:47:06Z")
Here’s a question - should someone be referred for diagnosis and treatment before being assisted in suicide? What if what is troubling them is as simple as a malfunctioning thyroid and a small tablet of levothyroxine once a day would restore them to wholeness? At what point do we say _Okay, go ahead, what you’ve got isn’t fixable._ Or doesn’t it matter? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-suicide-be-a-human-right/662010.md?page=4)