Fair enough on point one, but what serious job options are there for a 13 year old. A paper route ain’t gonna cut it.
I rather thought a misdemeanor offense can be punishable by up to one year in jail, depending on severity. What class misdemeanor is statutory rape?
Dude, I don’t know what rock you have been hiding under, but a 14 year old can get a paper route, and when I was working in circulation for a local newspaper a route can get you $250 US per week if it is a full route, country type, and $175 US per week for a town route. Sometimes it only takes 2 housing complexes to make a single town route…I have held jobs as a responsible adult that didn’t have that kind of income.
Of course the downside to a paper route is it is a 7/365 job, if you need vacation time it is grudgingly given, but any sick days are hell on the circulation department…and you get up at ungodly early hours to get the papers delivered by 7 am…
Many American attitudes in this regard strike me as a bit puritanical–to criminalize consensual behavior after the age of physical sexual maturity. I agree that it’s EASIER to criminalize it across the board rather than try to determine the level of consent on a case-by-case basis, but I’m not entirely convinced the current legal structure is the best solution. I haven’t given it a great deal of thought however; just been struck–mostly in fictional (coughL&Ocough) situations–that the horror of reaction to such things may create just as much damage, if not more, than the behavior itself.
I came late to this thread, and as far as I can see Askia has said pretty much all I would say.
I think emancipation should be requestable by the person without paerental concent being necessary.
I sometimes wonder if a ‘proof of adulthood’ test could be created, once passed a person gets all the advantages and responsabilities of an adult (right to vote, have sex, have full time job, jury duty, be criminally liable). People would be automaticaly passed at age of 18 unless they are severely mentally handicapped perhapse. And anyone who has not passed the test (under 18, or in care) may take the test whenever they wish to become fully emancipated people.
Ah, so that’s what they mean that in the Good Old Days all the kids in our schools had sound Traditional Values…
Around here, AoC has been 14 since almost forever, and depending on whether the new Penal Code survives to enactment unchanged may go up to 16 next May. (We also had the archaic “seduction of a maiden” crime, where if you entice a 15-to-18 year old into bed with promises of marriage, you’d better be married to her soon after, or you’re in trouble. THAT one got simply abolished) I tend to agree with 16 as a good rule-of-thumb. 18 just sounds to me as too high.
But the case around here is that our society has changed a heap between 1902 and 2004, and a law originally meant for a rural, agrarian (heck, 1902? make that semifeudal), socially isolated/stratified community doesn’t really fit a postindustrial, urban, socially high-mobility/diversity community.
It seems more and more US states are incorporating into the statute the so-called “Juliet” (as in Romeo and…) Laws, to allow an age “window” to mitigate situations when one part of a teen couple crosses the arbitrary age line.
I think your personal stake in this issue is really clouding your perceptions. In general, the age of consent laws are kinda dumb to many people, but most of us don’t really care about changing it because most people are so used to marginalizing children that it seems natural, even if these children are also engaging in otherwise natural behavior. Secondly, we have a lot of anecdotal evidence that many of us remember our thoughts from that time, and given the opportunity would have quite likely taken it. Thirdly, we don’t automatically assume sexual contact is abuse.
Depends on what you mean by “capacity to make sexual judgments.” If you mean good judgments, I don’t think you’d find a lot of support in that thread for that. I don’t think 14 year olds are capable of making good judgments about sex per se. In fact, I don’t think virgins in general are capable of it, no matter their age. It amazes me how much sex can complicate things sometimes. So what I’m saying is that poor decision-making about sex is simply not indigenous to 14 year olds. As such, I don’t see a really pressing reason for our current age of consent laws.
I would mostly be happy to lower age of consent to an age that approximates physical maturity, probably 13-16. Somewhere in there. If there is suspicion of abuse, I think it should be incumbent on the accused to prove there was no abuse rather than a presumption of innocence, because young kids are finding their way about still and can be lead astray (though I don’t think it is that easy). Without a healthy attitude towards sex, it is hard for the potential victim to distinguish what is unhealthy. If a kid is told sex is wrong and that’s that, how do you seperate abuse from normal contact, disfunction from normal desire, and so on?
Sex is not some wacky social construct, it is the core of our biological selves. Without approaching it openly, honestly, and letting kids find out about it in their own way, I think we do them a disservice. I know plenty of kids who waited to have sex, and not even for religious reasons. While there was some slight mocking, most people I knew respected the decision and pretty much didn’t even question it. Perhaps kids have changed since I was one. Perhaps parents aren’t active enough in their kids’ lives to build the trust necessary for their children to confide in them. I don’t know. But the AoC is a lazy, half-assed solution to something that doesn’t seem like a huge problem.
Yes… as I understand it, that’s the definition of misdemeanor. A misdemeanor is punishable by less than a year; a felony is punishable by more than a year.
Uh oh, conflict! Who should I believe?
I’ve never had a paper route or known anyone who did, so I must confess my ignorance about how much they earn. $250 a week is only $13,000 a year, which is hard to live on, but I suppose it could be done. If not, well, that’s why I support relaxing the labor laws for kids who want to work.
This seems to be the biggest barrier to effective emancipation of minors. The culture still, by a large margin, sees them as unable to handle the responsibilities as well as an older adult. Some youngsters are changing this perception, especially in the technology field, but I don’t think we’ll be at the point where age is not a factor in hiring decisions for quite some time. It took an act of congress to keep people from discriminating against older adults(and even that is probably only partially effective). I just don’t see it happening for emancipated minors. Whcih is a damn shame for those mature few who are ready to take their place before society is ready to offer it.
Enjoy,
Steven
Kids are so much more savvy in the sex dept. than we were. I don’t think we give them enough credit for being able to make the decision to do the deed. It’s impossible to police, so maybe we should think about educating them on the responsibility that goes with it. Maybe we should make birth control mandatory like childhood vaccines. If you talk openly with kids about it, give them the tools to do it responsibly, and understand that they are sexual beings, I think we’d see a lot less trauma, pregnancy, disease, and other downsides of an otherwise good thing.
In my opinion, many to most 15 year olds can handle it, but I think the legal age should probably be 16.
I’d like to see the minimum age of consent be 13 with a window of fewer than six years. An 18-year-old can sleep with a willing 13-year-old; a 19-year-old can sleep with a willing 14-year-old, so on and so forth. At 18, everyone’s game.
Of course, this law would not apply to people who are in a position of authority over the younger partner. Thus, a 22-year-old teacher or counselor could not legally sleep with a 17-year-old student or client.
I have some problems with the 18/13 or 19/14 scenario in your 6-year window. I’d be perfectly OK with a 2 year window… but I’m not basing this on any research. I’ll keep looking for info.
If you accept that most 15 year olds can handle it, shouldn’t they be allowed to consent? It just seems like frivolous discrimination to deny this right to people you know can handle it, purely on the basis of age.
I think you’re trying to read far more into my analogy than is necessary.
Driving a car = Responsibility
Having sex = Responsibility
Do you disagree?
What? You’ve made it far too simple.
Driving a car = not very likely unless parents (who are legally responsible for any messes minor child gets into when driving) help out (provide car and insurance). Providing a car and insurance implies that the parents are willing to cover any mistakes the kid might make.
Having sex = likely as long as the kids want to and can slip away from parents. Parents will still very likely be obligated to pay for any mistakes (pregnancy, etc.) that minor children make, however. So whether or not the parents are willing to foot the bill, they very likely will have to.
So, with the cars, the parents have some say: they can refuse to let the kid drive, refuse to let the kid be insured, because they (the parents) don’t want to pay for any irresponsibility on the kid’s part. With sex, that ain’t necessarily the case.
Right. If you just keep your ear to the ground you’ll here an awful lot of stuff that is pure BS.
On the other hand, our Pledge of Allegiance didn’t contain the words “Under God” so you expect us to be an immoral bunch of secular humanists.
Anyway, any opinion to the contrary notwithstanding, sex is, and always has been, both traditional and valuable.
I’ve never even been to America, so I will remain silent on as to the rewards for doing a paper route there, but I had a paper route here in the UK when I was 13, and it only paid about £5 a week (this was 15 years ago). I think that was par for the course over here, it certainly was in the area where I lived.
How about a man in the early twenties to early thirties age range with a 17 year old girlfriend? Would you say he’s a criminal? I would not. I just cannot see the 17 year old girlfriend as being a child. We can legally define 17 year olds as children all we like; it doesn’t make it so. By 17, they’ve been physically and sexually adult for several years. I don’t see any reason why 17 year olds should not be sexually active, and I don’t see any reason why they should limit themselves to under-20 partners.
Not that I’d set the age of concent as high as 17.
I think I’d set it at 14 – but 14 and 15 year olds would be off limits to persons age (18? 19? 20? not sure what the limit should be) and older. At age 16, there would no longer be any rules re how old one’s partners could be.
I don’t think making the suggestion indicates one way or the other if she had started menstuating. In other words, she could hold up the sign even if she had not started. And even if she didn’t actually know what she was suggesting.
Did anyone take he up on it?
I agree, but I don’t think it has yet been demonstrated here that the age of the onset of menstruation is lower now than then.
She knew, and so did everyone else.
I don’t know but it wouldn’t surprise me.