# Should the ban on sales of pornography to minors be lifted? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 28, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083 "2011-06-28T01:11:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/1 "2011-06-28T01:11:14Z")
[The SCOTUS has just ruled that sales of violent video games cannot be restricted based on age](http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_SUPREME_COURT_VIOLENT_VIDEO_GAMES?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-06-27-20-28-04). > [@](#): > > The high court, on a 7-2 vote, threw out California’s 2005 law covering games sold or rented to those under 18, calling it an unconstitutional violation of free-speech rights. Writing for the majority, Justice Antonin Scalia, said, “Even where the protection of children is the object, the constitutional limits on governmental action apply.” > > Scalia, who pointed out the violence in a number of children’s fairy tales, said that while states have legitimate power to protect children from harm, “that does not include a free-floating power to restrict the ideas to which children may be exposed.” My first thought when reading this, and apparently a thought on the minds of Justices Breyer and Thomas, was: then how the heck can we say it’s okay to ban sales of porn? Why aren’t those same constitutional limits on governmental action applicable to images of naked people? > [@Justice Stephen Breyer](#): > > What sense does it make to forbid selling to a 13-year-old boy a magazine with an image of a nude woman, while protecting the sale to that 13-year-old of an interactive video game in which he actively, but virtually, binds and gags the woman, then tortures and kills her? Justice Scalia must think he covered this distinction in his opinion: > [@](#): > > Video games, said Scalia’s majority opinion, fall into the same category as books, plays and movies as entertainment that “communicates ideas - and even social messages” deserving of First Amendment free-speech protection. And non-obscene speech “cannot be suppressed solely to protect the young from ideas or images that a legislative body thinks unsuitable for them,” he said. But isn’t that exactly what a ban on porn sales does? It seeks “solely to protect the young from ideas or images that a legislative body thinks unsuitable for them”, doesn’t it? I mean, has any real “harm” ever been shown to occur from young people seeing pornography? My $.02: lift the ban on pornography. It makes no sense and cannot be justified under the US Constitution. Does anyone here think differently? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/2 "2011-06-28T01:18:14Z")
People buy porn? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/3 "2011-06-28T01:58:04Z")
> [@](#): > > My first thought when reading this, and apparently a thought on the minds of Justices Breyer and Thomas, was: then how the heck can we say it’s okay to ban sales of porn? Why aren’t those same constitutional limits on governmental action applicable to images of naked people? Well, they aren’t exactly the same thing. It’s like saying that because we allow violent video games we should allow smoking or drinking. Mind, I don’t have a real issue with minors having access to porn (nor with them having access to violent video games), but because one thing is ruled acceptable doesn’t mean that everything is acceptable. > [@](#): > > But isn’t that exactly what a ban on porn sales does? It seeks “solely to protect the young from ideas or images that a legislative body thinks unsuitable for them”, doesn’t it? I mean, has any real “harm” ever been shown to occur from young people seeing pornography? I don’t believe that porn in and of itself is harmful, and I think it should be up to the parents to decide one way or another until the minor is of whatever age society feels they become adults. The same goes for video games, of course…and everything else. But our society isn’t really structured to allow adults to make decisions even for themselves, let alone for their children, and getting most Americans to say it’s ok to sell porn to minors AS minors is going to be a bit of a hard sell. Of course, since porn is free on the internet, and since kids all have at least cell phones these days (and most parents are clueless about what their kids watch or preventing them from searching at will for whatever they want) I’d say it’s not really a major problem. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/4 "2011-06-28T02:02:31Z")
[QUOTE=Steven Breyer] What sense does it make to forbid selling to a 13-year-old boy a magazine with an image of a nude woman, while protecting the sale to that 13-year-old of an interactive video game in which he actively, but virtually, binds and gags the woman, then tortures and kills her? [/QUOTE] What the fuck video game is Breyer talking about here? I’m not aware of any games like this existing, and if they did, I’m sure they’d be rated A or at least M, and therefore, _not_ legally available for sale to minors. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/5 "2011-06-28T02:04:09Z")
He is probably thinking of Grand Theft Auto or something like that. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/6 "2011-06-28T02:07:15Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > What the fuck video game is Breyer talking about here? I’m not aware of any games like this existing, and if they did, I’m sure they’d be rated A or at least M, and therefore, _not_ legally available for sale to minors. 1. You seem to be under the impression that the ESRB ratings carry some some of legal weight with respect to sales. They do not. They are applied because the producer has voluntarily submitted his work to the rating board/system. 2. As the SCOTUS just ruled, any attempt to legally bar those sales based on age and content are unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/7 "2011-06-28T02:14:47Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > He is probably thinking of Grand Theft Auto or something like that. I’m not aware of any GTA game (or any other) where you can do that. There’s probably one somewhere though; I’ve heard of one created by some racist group that lets you run a concentration camp. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/8 "2011-06-28T02:16:45Z")
Right. You are assuming though that this guy has actually PLAYED GTA. :dubious: I know a lot of folks who haven’t played a video game in their lives (my folks spring to mind) who seemingly (think) they know a lot about them because of what they’ve read or seen on Fox. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/9 "2011-06-28T02:21:50Z")
No. Let’s let parents have _some_ autonomy in raising their children. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/10 "2011-06-28T02:29:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m not aware of any GTA game (or any other) where you can do that. There’s probably one somewhere though; I’ve heard of one created by some racist group that lets you run a concentration camp. Heck, it could practically be Custer’s Revenge, at least from the video I’ve seen of the “gameplay.” Not that I expect a SC Justice to have heard of an unofficial Atari game from the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/11 "2011-06-28T03:00:31Z")
Do you have any examples of statutes or ordinances that forbid sales of sexual material to minors? It seems to me that we have zoning/licensing ordinances that instruct sexually oriented businesses to restrict entry of minors, and we sometimes have ordinances forbidding the sale to anyone of _obscene_ (as that term is legally defined) material. It’s not clear to me that we actually have statutes that forbid the sale of a non-obscene sexual book to a minor. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/12 "2011-06-28T03:35:30Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > Do you have any examples of statutes or ordinances that forbid sales of sexual material to minors? > > It seems to me that we have zoning/licensing ordinances that instruct sexually oriented businesses to restrict entry of minors, and we sometimes have ordinances forbidding the sale to anyone of _obscene_ (as that term is legally defined) material. It’s not clear to me that we actually have statutes that forbid the sale of a non-obscene sexual book to a minor. In general parlance, pornography is the same as obscene material. The point stands: if violent material cannot be restricted without running afoul of the 1st Amendment, then I don’t see how obscene material can be either. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/13 "2011-06-28T03:45:08Z")
^Because _obscene_ material does not enjoy the protection of the First Amendment. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/14 "2011-06-28T03:50:48Z")
But the definition of what is or isn’t ‘obscene’ is pretty variable and has changed substantially over time. I don’t think that it’s a First Amendment issue in any case. There are a lot of things that society has decided that children can or can’t buy or do that has little or nothing to do with the Constitution or the various Amendments. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/15 "2011-06-28T05:04:13Z")
> [@Mr\_Downtown](#): > > ^Because _obscene_ material does not enjoy the protection of the First Amendment. The question, as asked by 2 Supreme Court Justices, and also by this OP is: why not? How is it justified as consititutional to restrict sales and/or access to it? It’s right there in the OP, ya know. It’s the friggin’ title of the thread, too. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/16 "2011-06-28T05:05:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > But the definition of what is or isn’t ‘obscene’ is pretty variable and has changed substantially over time. > > I don’t think that it’s a First Amendment issue in any case. There are a lot of things that society has decided that children can or can’t buy or do that has little or nothing to do with the Constitution or the various Amendments. > > -XT Why isn’t it a 1st Amendment issue? What, in your opinion, separates images of naked people from images of people being killed or maimed that makes it not “entertainment” and into something different, such that it should not enjoy 1st Amendment protection? That is the issue raised in the OP, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/17 "2011-06-28T05:21:53Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > What the fuck video game is Breyer talking about here? I’m not aware of any games like this existing, and if they did, I’m sure they’d be rated A or at least M, and therefore, _not_ legally available for sale to minors. I did a quick google for “video game torture” and found that there are a number of games that involve torture and a few that employ it as the sole object of the game. [Torture In video Games](http://kotaku.com/5353873/torture-in-video-games) [Should you take ‘Torture’ seriously?](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25337373/ns/technology_and_science-games/t/should-you-take-torture-seriously/) World of Warcraft has for more than 2.5 years included at least one quest ([The Art Of Persuasion](http://www.wowhead.com/quest=11648)) that requires you to torture a captive subject, and it’s arguably the most-played game on the planet. I haven’t played them myself, but I hear that _God Of War_ and _Red Dead Redemption_ contain instances similar to what Justice Breyer described. Also there was the now-infamous [RapeLay](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RapeLay) game from Illusion Soft. > [@](#): > > The game centers on a male character who stalks and rapes a mother and her two daughters. So, yes, games that involve torture are out there, and not all of them bother to seek a rating with the ESRB. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 6:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/18 "2011-06-28T06:04:50Z")
I’ve found myself becoming more and more indifferent to the question of whether any particular restriction on pornography (or strip clubs or whatever) jives with the labyrinth of Supreme Court Rulings that’s sprung up surrounding these issues over the decades. What I feel is that _either_ we should legalize the sale of pornography to minors _or_ we should make some attempt to enforce the laws we have. As things stand now, millions of kids download pornography every day; those voluntary “don’t click unless you’re 18 or older” pages don’t seem to work, for some reason. So the message kids get in the current situation is that laws are optional and laughable. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/19 "2011-06-28T06:06:17Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > My $.02: lift the ban on pornography. It makes no sense and cannot be justified under the US Constitution. > > Does anyone here think differently? If so, why? Porn harms kids? I question that premise. Let the kids watch porn, I don’t care ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083/20 "2011-06-28T06:28:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > The question, as asked by 2 Supreme Court Justices, and also by this OP is: why not? Because the first amendment protects speech, and obscenity isn’t speech. Don’t ask me to defend that, because I can’t, and as far as I know, no one else can, either, but that’s the legal reasoning. > [@Argent Towers](#): > > I’m not aware of any games like this existing, and if they did, I’m sure they’d be rated A or at least M, and therefore, not legally available for sale to minors. Aside from the fact that the video game rating system is an industry standard, and not backed by force of law, the entire point of this decision was whether or not A or M rated games are legally available for sale to minors. Turns out, they are. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-ban-on-sales-of-pornography-to-minors-be-lifted/587083.md?page=2)