# Should the credit card duopoly be broken? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 17, 2022, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851 "2022-08-17T21:28:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/41 "2022-08-18T18:10:41Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > Sadly, that’s all there is on an Apple Card. > Quite literally: there is the Apple logo, Goldman Sachs wordmark, Mastercard wordmark and logo, and my name. Additional clutter on the card would make Steve Jobs’ ghost sad. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/42 "2022-08-18T18:15:46Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > make Steve Jobs’ ghost sad. “Trying to read numbers off the card? You’re doing it wrong.” ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/43 "2022-08-18T18:59:14Z")
> [@minor7flat5](#): > > Sadly, that’s all there is on an Apple Card. > Quite literally: there is the Apple logo, Goldman Sachs wordmark, Mastercard wordmark and logo, and my name. > > I found this out when trying to provide the card number to a woman at an airport rental counter–she was required to key in the last 4 in her swipe machine. I gave her the “secret” number that Apple gives you to make purchases, but that didn’t work. I didn’t realize that there is a “double secret” number that is used for this specific circumstance. In fact, there are three hidden card numbers, one secret one and two double-secret ones, all visible only in the Wallet app. It is indeed a bit maddening. I have an Apple Card because I wanted to get 24 months of interest free payments on a MacBook Pro. I don’t have an iPhone. So… I can only ever look up my balance and payments on my MacBook. It’s a complete pain in the ass. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/44 "2022-08-18T19:05:56Z")
“Click here for the one thing you need to do with your Apple card.” After pages of boring ads: “Write the customer service contact number on the back with an indelible marker.” ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/45 "2022-08-18T19:07:34Z")
Here’s an earlier discussion (my blushes): > [@Should Visa and Mastercard be broken up for being a duo-monopoly?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-visa-and-mastercard-be-broken-up-for-being-a-duo-monopoly/961446): > > Forgive my boundless ignorance on this subject, but it seems like there are only two real choices nowadays for bank-issued credit/debit cards - a card with the Visa or Mastercard logo. Have these companies reached the point where they should be broken up to encourage competition - like “baby bells”? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/46 "2022-08-18T19:09:13Z")
How well did breaking up the Baby Bells work? They were separated for a while, into seven or eight separate companies, but eventually recombined to form the present ATT and Verizon. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/47 "2022-08-18T19:46:22Z")
But they have way, way, less market power than the combined AT&T had. Right now there is a duopoly in “last 100 yards” in most places where your only choice for broadband is your [legacy] cable tv company or the [legacy] wireline phone company. At least they are competing with each other. And they are competing with wireless as well as wireless speeds increase. The big bad AT&T of old controlled the entire telecoms network from end to end. And leveraged that control in a way that would make Steve Jobs weep. They approved what phone you would use, effectively monopolizing the equipment market as well. They charged high prices, over-engineered the heck out of the network and spent millions buying off regulators. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/48 "2022-08-18T21:35:30Z")
I remember back in the 19060s and 70s, when my father traveled for his job. He had Diner’s Club, American Express, gasoline cards, a Universal Air Travel Card (which was by no means universal), department store charge cards and who knows what else. The credit card section of his wallet was at least an inch thick, because no one accepted anyone else’s card, and he couldn’t be caught out on the road needing gas at a Texaco station and all he had was a Sinclair card. Then BankAmericard went national, and MasterCharge came along as a competitor. One by one all those privately issued cards went by the wayside. Discover, IIRC, was supposed to be a lower-cost competitor backed by Sears, but it never found much acceptance by other merchants. Clearly those major companies must have found some advantage in either getting rid of their own cards or simply having Visa/MC issue cards with a company logo on them. Given that [the fees Visa, MC, and Discover charge merchants are very similar, and AmEx is a tad higher,](https://www.bankrate.com/finance/credit-cards/merchants-guide-to-credit-card-processing-fees/) I suspect there’s no real competition because no one else thinks they can make money off the business. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/49 "2022-08-18T21:49:17Z")
> [@Kent\_Clark](#): > > Clearly those major companies must have found some advantage in either getting rid of their own cards or simply having Visa/MC issue cards with a company logo on them. But they haven’t. You can still go into many stores and get a store credit card, one that is only good at that store and its subsidiaries. They do so because they can save themselves the interchange fees, and often have some pretty attractive offers to get you to sign up. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/50 "2022-08-18T21:52:50Z")
Which stores still offer non-Visa, non-Mastercard store cards? I haven’t seen that in a long time. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/51 "2022-08-18T21:58:29Z")
Target’s Red Card is a big one. As I understand Target actually has its own financial division to administer it themselves, to save themselves the fees for processing credit cards. I used to have a Kohl’s charge card, but they canceled it because I never used it (yes, I signed up specifically to get a big discount they were offering). I assume they still offer them, but I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/52 "2022-08-18T22:00:14Z")
Thanks. You’re right; Target has a Mastercard card plus they also have the Red Card. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/53 "2022-08-18T22:04:39Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > I used to have a Kohl’s charge card, but they canceled it because I never used it (yes, I signed up specifically to get a big discount they were offering). I assume they still offer them, but I could be wrong. They do; I just used mine a couple of weeks ago. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/54 "2022-08-18T22:11:08Z")
Store credit cards didn’t all go away. People still use them, but they can also use their Visa or M/C to purchase an item, and they usually get points or miles for doing so. The stores must still make money on their cards, or they wouldn’t have them anymore ---
**Author:** ![FinsToTheLeft](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finstotheleft/32/2930_2.png) [@FinsToTheLeft](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinsToTheLeft)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/55 "2022-08-18T22:44:12Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Store credit cards didn’t all go away. They have in Canada. Almost all are now co-branded cards that are backed by an FI, rather than the store dealing with the credit risk. The last hold outs are the gasoline companies, and even those have largely outsourced their credit operations. ---
**Author:** ![Dr\_Paprika](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr_paprika/32/3042_2.png) [@Dr\_Paprika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr_Paprika)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2022, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/56 "2022-08-18T22:54:13Z")
Sorry. Usually do a thread search but don’t think I did this time. ---
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2022, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/57 "2022-08-19T03:15:17Z")
> [@FinsToTheLeft](#): > > They have in Canada. Sorry, I forgot we were talking about Canada and not the US. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2022, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/58 "2022-08-19T03:32:23Z")
Right, it’s all the infrastructure–the “payment rails”, as the business calls them. Nobody’s going to build THAT. There have been plenty of attempts to do things in the Payments space; I have a page full of names. They’re all nibbling at the edges, trying to get a piece of the pie. But you have to be an Apple or a Google (or maybe a Samsung) to really do a _whatever_ Pay. My favorites among the failures: ISIS (bad name) and–at least a runner-up for stupidest name–Clinkle! BTW, to get a sense of how big business this is, here are some reported numbers from 2015, U.S. market: Total credit card spend: $1.5T Payments industry revenues: $150B (yes, ten cents on the dollar!) Fraud: $5-7B Losses to default/bankruptcy: $25B So if you’ve ever wondered why the Payments industry doesn’t seem that worried about fraud, look at those numbers. Sure, they don’t want it to go _up_, but as long as it stays around those numbers, it’s fine, nothing to see here. They’re more worried about consumer confidence–they don’t want YOU to worry your little head about whether it’s safe to use your card and maybe do something crazy like use a check (or a cheque) or _gasp_ pay cash! ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2022, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/59 "2022-08-19T03:33:51Z")
Target Red Card is closer to debit (well, ACH) than a true credit card, to the best of my knowledge. Very different animal. And since it’s single-merchant, kind of a non-player. Any branded card (“Target Mastercard”) is of course just a marketing deal. ---
**Author:** ![phs3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8491ac/32.png) [@phs3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phs3)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2022, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851/60 "2022-08-19T03:36:05Z")
Weirdly, Apple also has cards issued by Green Dot Bank. I haven’t figured out how those relate to/differ from the Goldman versions, but GDB seems to be a different entity than GS. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-credit-card-duopoly-be-broken/969851.md?page=4)