# Should the Fourth Estate decide National Security Issues?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 23, 2006, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881 "2006-06-23T16:30:35Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/21 "2006-06-23T19:14:58Z")
It’s not the press’s job to make sure government secrets stay secret. If the newspapers hear something that they shouldn’t have heard, that means the information is compromised, even if the paper declines to publish it. If the newspapers can learn this stuff, then terrorists or drug runners or whoever the bad guy of the day is can also learn it. Looked at this way, the papers are going the gov. a service. If the CIA is reading details of their latest operation on the front page of the NYT, they know they’ve got a security problem and need to revise how they keep a lid on these sorts of things.
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### Author:  [@spazattak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spazattak)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/22 "2006-06-23T21:00:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> I don’t think all the information is available to anyone. For instance, who belongs to which transaction/bank accoint number.
>
> So, if those who are moving money for terrorist means know that their transactions are 1) traceable and 2) being watched, they will seek to find new ways to move the money, thus hurting our ability to fight terrorism.
They’ve been freezing assets and transactions for the last couple of years. I think they already knew the transactions were being tracked. I propose that programs like this SHOULD be made public. The monitoring of routine communications and transactions (if permitted) needs to have public oversight. Everyone should know about it, including the terrorists. Use it to your advantage. By making this information public you push them further underground, having to resort to cash transactions and organized crime to raise the funds. Forcing them into the fringes of society makes busting them that much easier. They can’t just pickup a 9-5 job anymore and wire the proceeds to their leader or whatever AND THEY KNOW IT.
Everything that our government does to protect us should be public knowledge, especially when it involves tracking personal communications and transactions. If we don’t know and can’t review the processes, these tools can just as easilly be used for bad purposes (harassing political enemies, social misfits etc) as they can for good (tracking down terrorists). Thats why we need oversight and a transparent system. Its part of living in a FREE society.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/23 "2006-06-23T21:20:14Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> No reason? It’s been a helpful tool in the fight against terror that involves no armed conflict. It allows us to target the money players which makes it harder for those who would want to wage a war of terror and blow up innocent people to do so. That’s “no reason”?!! 😕
First, let’s get some basic facts straight:
1. There is no “War on Terror.” You can’t make war on an emotion.
2. There is no “War on Terrorism.” You can’t make war on a tactic.
3. There might, arguably, be such thing as a “War on Terrorists.” (Al-Qaeda is not a sovereign state, but neither was the Viet Cong.) However, that is not the war our government has been fighting for the past five years.
Second – we’re talking about what journalists should or should not do. Now I’m a former newspaper reporter and a journalism-school graduate. Journalists are instilled with a rigorous code of ethics – which, like any code of professional ethics, is in some respects at variance with what most people would think of as conventional ethics. It is unethical to make up a story. It might be unethical to publish it with insufficient verification, although there’s a lot of gray area there. But it is never, ever ethical to sit on a story for fear of the political repercussions. E.g., the Abu Ghraib photos – you could make a case (such arguments were made in this forum) that publishing them put our troops in even greater danger; if true, that does not change the fact that it was an ethical decision, by journalistic standards, for the media to publish them. There was, indeed, no other ethical decision they could have made.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/24 "2006-06-23T22:35:54Z")
I’m biased on this topic, as I’m a member of the press, but I’m very glad that the press allows me (as a citizen) to find out things the government doesn’t want me to know. I don’t think the government should get perfect secrecy. If it did, it would only try to do more things in secret. It’s better for the public to know more.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/25 "2006-06-23T23:03:37Z")
> [@Squink](#):
>
> Whose primary motivation is our national security? Do we really live in a time when national security demands alone require us to [classify 15,000,000 documents a year](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150557,00.html)? That’s up by a factor of two since 2001, and [fourfold since 1995](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-0604300358apr30,1,518466.column?coll=chi-navrailnews-nav).
> Has the US really become that much less secure since Clinton’s first term, or has ass-covering slipped in as a major motivation for classifying documents?
You make a good point. No doubt that the classification process is abused, but the fact remains that there some things that are legitimate national security concerns. I guess, as most posters have stated, that there has to be this healthy suspicion of the government by the press. But I was intrigued by this particular case as it seemed to not have a downside. It was of value, leasding to arrests. I am not aware of any abuse of it. In fact, the government proactively put safeguards in place. Now that tool is of zero value. And for what? So more newspapers can be sold?
But on the “publish it”: side, a few posters have made the point that if journalists have the info, the cat’s probably out of the bag anyway, so it’s probably not such a big deal.
I understand, as some have said, how they don’t trust the governement. I’m wary of them also, but I’m not so comfortable with the press either. They, too, have an agenda.
All in all, I guess it makes sense that the papers publish the stories. Even though, as an editor, I would be more inclined to not be party to something that would weaken our resources in the fight against terrorism, terrorists, radical Islamic Fundemantalists who wish to do us harm, etc.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/26 "2006-06-23T23:07:34Z")
> [@Marley23](#):
>
> I’m biased on this topic, as I’m a member of the press, but I’m very glad that the press allows me (as a citizen) to find out things the government doesn’t want me to know. I don’t think the government should get perfect secrecy. If it did, it would only try to do more things in secret. It’s better for the public to know more.
But what do you do if you come upon info that you believe, if published, will result in the death of Americans. I know this is a vague hypothetical, but it is so intentionally. What do you do in an instance when your duty as a journalist conflicts with your duty as a citizen or a patriot?
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/27 "2006-06-23T23:10:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> You make a good point. No doubt that the classification process is abused, but the fact remains that there some things that are legitimate national security concerns. I guess, as most posters have stated, that there has to be this healthy suspicion of the government by the press. But I was intrigued by this particular case as it seemed to not have a downside. It was of value, leasding to arrests. I am not aware of any abuse of it. In fact, the government proactively put safeguards in place. Now that tool is of zero value. And for what? So more newspapers can be sold?
The problem is, how do you know if the government is actually following those safeguards, if no one knows what the government is doing?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/28 "2006-06-23T23:13:44Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> But what do you do if you come upon info that you believe, if published, will result in the death of Americans.
You publish. TV stations in the Los Angeles area might well have anticipated that broadcasting the video of the Rodney King beating might lead to a riot, but that would have been no excuse not to broadcast it.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/29 "2006-06-23T23:17:55Z")
> [@Miller](#):
>
> The problem is, how do you know if the government is actually following those safeguards, if no one knows what the government is doing?
We hold our officials accountable. Because as long as there are any secrets, you run into the problem you identify. And I think you’d agree that there will always be secrets concerneing national security. Personally I hope the government is doing a whole bunch of stuff that I and those who wish to do us harm do not know.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/30 "2006-06-23T23:19:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> You publish. TV stations in the Los Angeles area might well have anticipated that broadcasting the video of the Rodney King beating might lead to a riot, but that would have been no excuse not to broadcast it.
Can you think of any scenario in which you would come to the opposite conclusion?
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### Author:  [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/31 "2006-06-23T23:25:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> _Pentagon Papers_, anyone?
Damn, you beat me to it.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/32 "2006-06-23T23:26:23Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Can you think of any scenario in which you would come to the opposite conclusion?
No, and neither could any ethical journalist. It’s like asking a lawyer (I’m also a lawyer) to envision a situation that would justify betraying a client, or a doctor to imagine a situation that would require murdering a patient.
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [June 23, 2006, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/33 "2006-06-23T23:27:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> I am not aware of any abuse of it. In fact, the government proactively put safeguards in place. Now that tool is of zero value…
How _could_ you be aware of abuses of the program before you even know that it existed? Now that people know about the program, it may be that 500 or a thousand, will be able to look back and say something like: “hey, when I got my identity stolen a couple years ago, wasn’t that just after I sent some cash to cousin Bob in [Almaty](http://www.world66.com/asia/centralasia/kazakhstan/almaty)?”
We’ll have to wait and see how things shake out, but secret safeguards on a secret program don’t really inspire me with a lot of confidence.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/34 "2006-06-24T01:05:45Z")
> [@](#):
>
> But what do you do if you come upon info that you believe, if published, will result in the death of Americans. I know this is a vague hypothetical, but it is so intentionally. What do you do in an instance when your duty as a journalist conflicts with your duty as a citizen or a patriot?
I think any reasonable media outlet will voluntarily comply with a reasonable request to pull a story if they’re told it would be a real threat to national security or likely to cause somebody’s death. As for the duties of citizenship and patriotism, most people in the media feel an obligation to protect the United States and the Constitution.
But the current administration is learning that you reap what you sew. Having repeatedly demonstrated that they’re willing to mislead the public, they’re now unsurprisingly finding that the public mistrusts them. And having repeatedly tried to use citizenship and patriotism as a smokescreen to advance the partisan agenda of one political group, they’re finding these appeals are also being viewed with greater skepticism.
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### Author:  [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/35 "2006-06-24T01:17:12Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> Now that tool is of zero value.
I disagree. Security is more effective when it’s out in the open. Why do stores make a point of having their security cameras visible? If they hid the cameras, they’d arrest more shoplifters, but arresting shoplifters isn’t the point. The goal is changing the behavior of potential shoplifters.
Similarly, pouring over thousands of financial transactions and making a few arrests will certainly help, but not as much as letting every terrorist organization in the world know that their money is being watched and forcing them to change their methods.
Prevention isn’t as sexy as retaliation, but it’s where the real work gets done.
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### Author:  [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/36 "2006-06-24T01:28:32Z")
> [@Dumbguy](#):
>
> I disagree. Security is more effective when it’s out in the open. Why do stores make a point of having their security cameras visible? If they hid the cameras, they’d arrest more shoplifters, but arresting shoplifters isn’t the point. The goal is changing the behavior of potential shoplifters.
>
> Similarly, pouring over thousands of financial transactions and making a few arrests will certainly help, but not as much as letting every terrorist organization in the world know that their money is being watched and forcing them to change their methods.
>
> Prevention isn’t as sexy as retaliation, but it’s where the real work gets done.
This is a very good point. But, infortunatley, I think while security cameras do dissuade teenagers and petty criminals from trying for easy pickings, that those who have concluded that their purpose on earth is to blow people up aren’t so easily encouraged to move on to other things.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/37 "2006-06-24T02:16:53Z")
Considering the still unresolved questions about the legality and Constitutionality of the massive database of telecommunications information on private American citizens, the press would probably be particularly concerned with keeping the public informed of other similar breeches of privacy.
Further, it’s helpful to remember that the Executive Branch is only _part_ of the government.
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### Author:  [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/38 "2006-06-24T05:03:41Z")
> [@magellan01](#):
>
> But what do you do if you come upon info that you believe, if published, will result in the death of Americans. I know this is a vague hypothetical, but it is so intentionally. What do you do in an instance when your duty as a journalist conflicts with your duty as a citizen or a patriot?
I’d lean toward publishing, but I think I’d really have to be in a situation with specifics to know I would do. I disagree with some other posters that that’s the only option for an ethical journalist. As a human being, you do have to be aware that you don’t exist in an academic world and that there are consequences to your decisions.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/39 "2006-06-24T06:28:16Z")
> [@](#):
>
> The question is, in the final analysis, who makes the final call on how important something is to our national security? The media or the governement? Does it matter that one group are elected officials (or appointed through elected officials) and the other not? That one group has been charged with keeping us safe and the other to sell papers and make a profit?
Another way of phrasing this issue is: Should the government be able to tell the media what it can or cannot say about the government?
Put that way, the right answer is obvious to most people.
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### Author:  [@if6was9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if6was9)
#### Post date: [June 24, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-fourth-estate-decide-national-security-issues/361881/40 "2006-06-24T17:16:37Z")
> [@VP Cheney](#):
>
> “What I find most disturbing about these stories is the fact that some of the news media take it upon themselves to disclose vital national security programs, thereby making it more difficult for us to prevent future attacks against the American people,” he said. “That offends me.”
No Dick, secretly and illegally spying on Americans is offensive. Claiming the press should just shut up about it when they find out is offensive.
[Reuters article here](http://reuters.excite.com/article/20060624/2006-06-24T133953Z_01_N24338734_RTRIDST_0_NEWS-SECURITY-SWIFT-DC.html)
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