# Should the government require cell phones to have radiation sensors? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 8, 2019, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229 "2019-06-08T21:33:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/21 "2019-06-10T12:17:35Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Proposal: require by law that if commercially available sensors, below a certain size/power consumption and of reasonable cost (say $5, adjusted for inflation), can meet the requirements, all cell phone manufacturers must install the sensors for phones sold in the United States. [There are ~400M cellular service subscribers in the US.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/283507/subscribers-to-top-wireless-carriers-in-the-us/) [They upgrade their phones about every two years.](https://www.google.com/search?q=average%20smartphone%20life&cad=h) That’s 100M phones replaced every year, so the total cost of your mandatory sensor program would be about $500M/year. [For public safety policy decisions by the US government, the value of a human life is set at roughly $9M.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#United_States) Your proposal would have to save about 56 lives per year, every year, to be economically justifiable. This seems unlikely. If you disagree with the numbers I’ve cited, feel free to substitute your own and redo the math. The number of people in the US who die every year from acute radiation exposure is awfully low, so I can’t imagine any realistic numbers that would justify your proposal. Re: carbon monoxide detectors, CO is a concern for enclosed spaces. Rather than putting CO detectors in a vast army of short-lived cell phones, it makes more sense to only put them in fixed locations where there’s a potential for CO buildup, and where they can serve their entire [5-year lifespan.](https://www.google.com/search?q=CO%20detector%20lifespan&cad=h) Radon buildup is likewise only [a problem in a small percentage of homes.](https://www.google.com/search?q=how%20many%20radon%20houses&cad=h) Moreover, if you do have a confirmed radon problem, you don’t address it by having your phone beep every time you go into your basement; you install a mitigation system. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/22 "2019-06-10T12:35:42Z")
I was joking about the carbon monoxide sensor, trying to point out that if you were going to put any sensors on phones, radiation is clearly not the one to put there. But as others have pointed out, phones are not particularly good vehicles for these type of sensors; it’s lots of unnecessary cost and complexity, in a poor format, for little return. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/23 "2019-06-10T13:31:26Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Sounds like a solution in search of a problem to me. How often are people accidentally wandering into irradiated areas that we need to put Geiger counters in hundreds of millions of devices? I don’t even think it’s technically feasible; Geiger counters use currents of hundreds of volts, so unless we’re talking about \*extremely \*small amperages, that’s not something a cell phone battery could power for long. Apparently the cameras on modern phones can do a credible job: > **[Smartphone radiation detector app tests positive](https://phys.org/news/2014-06-smartphone-detector-app-positive.html)** > > The popularity of smartphones continues to grow with the availability of an ever-growing range of applications. The app, Radioactivity Counter, is designed to measure a person's exposure to radiation. It claims to accurately detect the dose in... ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/24 "2019-06-10T13:32:15Z")
Do firefighters have their cell phones in their pockets when they gear up to fight a fire? I’d think that’s something that gets left in their locker or on the truck. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/25 "2019-06-10T13:42:08Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I don’t even think it’s technically feasible; Geiger counters use currents of hundreds of volts, so unless we’re talking about \*extremely \*small amperages, that’s not something a cell phone battery could power for long. “Geiger Counter” has become a generic term for any radiation detector. If this was implemented, it would likely be done using a solid-state radiation detector, like some variation of the camera imager currently used. But, even if you wanted to use a real Geiger-Muller tube, the voltage is not much of an issue - the current require is extremely small. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/26 "2019-06-10T13:46:22Z")
The government should only require things that are absolutely going to improve the consumers’ lives. Like, for instance,[those pop-sockets](https://www.amazon.com/PopSockets-Collapsible-Stand-Phones-Tablets/dp/B00UY1YTGG). I’ve never purchased one, but everybody seems to have them on their phones and they sure seem to like them. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/27 "2019-06-10T16:50:43Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > [There are ~400M cellular service subscribers in the US.](https://www.statista.com/statistics/283507/subscribers-to-top-wireless-carriers-in-the-us/) > > [They upgrade their phones about every two years.](https://www.google.com/search?q=average%20smartphone%20life&cad=h) > > That’s 100M phones replaced every year, so the total cost of your mandatory sensor program would be about $500M/year. > > [For public safety policy decisions by the US government, the value of a human life is set at roughly $9M.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_of_life#United_States) > > Your proposal would have to save about 56 lives per year, every year, to be economically justifiable. This seems unlikely. > > If you disagree with the numbers I’ve cited, feel free to substitute your own and redo the math. The number of people in the US who die every year from acute radiation exposure is awfully low, so I can’t imagine any realistic numbers that would justify your proposal. Good analysis and your conclusion seems reasonable. How do you account for ‘black swans’? That is, a large scale nuclear war could be a fairly small chanceyet if it happened, these detectors would potentially save thousands of lives. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/28 "2019-06-10T17:21:29Z")
If the technology allows them to be included in a cell phone at very low cost then they will end up in almost every phone anyway. If the government tries to require this it will result in cultural blowback, mostly conspiracy theories, and some libertarian objections on being told what to do. Same applies to CO detectors, and anything else the public can be convinced is useful, doesn’t cost too much, and makes their cellphones better than someone else’s. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/29 "2019-06-10T17:21:39Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > The government should only require things that are absolutely going to improve the consumers’ lives. Like, for instance,[those pop-sockets](https://www.amazon.com/PopSockets-Collapsible-Stand-Phones-Tablets/dp/B00UY1YTGG). I’ve never purchased one, but everybody seems to have them on their phones and they sure seem to like them. Make the face of the pop socket a film dosimeter. That’s right, I’m a problem solver. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/30 "2019-06-10T17:42:46Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Good analysis and your conclusion seems reasonable. How do you account for ‘black swans’? That is, a large scale nuclear war could be a fairly small chanceyet if it happened, these detectors would potentially save thousands of lives. I think generally you’d use the [expected value](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expected_value), i.e. probability of an event multiplied by the number of lives saved in that situation. If the device would save 1000 lives in a nuclear war, but the chance of that specific type of nuclear war is 1 in 100, that’s an expected value of 10 lives saved. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/31 "2019-06-10T18:01:52Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Good analysis and your conclusion seems reasonable. How do you account for ‘black swans’? That is, a large scale nuclear war could be a fairly small chanceyet if it happened, these detectors would potentially save thousands of lives. For poly-making purposes, I can think of two ways to account for black swans such as large-scale nuclear war: #1: estimate the likelihood of such a war, and estimate how many lives might be saved if such detectors were ubiquitous. Good luck with that, no matter which side of the discussion one happens to lean toward. #2: acknowledge that the probability is non-zero but probably very small. The government advises people on how to to prepare for and respond to a number of potential disasters, [including nuclear war.](https://www.ready.gov/nuclear-explosion) Their advice includes preparing an emergency supply kit; however, there is no recommendation anywhere for the average person to keep a geiger counter on hand, which suggests that the utility of widespread adoption is regarded as being pretty low. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/32 "2019-06-10T18:06:26Z")
You would save more lives by devices that would detect UV levels that would contribute to skin cancer, or tell you not to smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/33 "2019-06-10T19:29:31Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > You would save more lives by devices that would detect UV levels that would contribute to skin cancer, or tell you not to smoke. We have those, they’re called “moms”. Calibrations could be off on any given example, however. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/34 "2019-06-10T20:30:38Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Proposal: require by law that if commercially available sensors, below a certain size/power consumption and of reasonable cost (say $5, adjusted for inflation), can meet the requirements, all cell phone manufacturers must install the sensors for phones sold in the United States. > … Hell, no; our phones would be a lot bigger. ETA: I posted before reading on the cell phone app. That’s impressive! ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/35 "2019-06-10T21:52:59Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > We have those, they’re called “moms”. Calibrations could be off on any given example, however. 🙂 They also tell you when you’re too cold. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/36 "2019-06-10T21:53:08Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Good analysis and your conclusion seems reasonable. How do you account for ‘black swans’? That is, a large scale nuclear war could be a fairly small chanceyet if it happened, these detectors would potentially save thousands of lives. Unless you’re also planning on mandating hand-crank chargers on all cell phones, there’s not likely to be power for them for more than a few hours after the bombs drop. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2019, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229/37 "2019-06-10T23:22:33Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > If the technology allows them to be included in a cell phone at very low cost then they will end up in almost every phone anyway. If the government tries to require this it will result in cultural blowback, mostly conspiracy theories, and some libertarian objections on being told what to do. > > Same applies to CO detectors, and anything else the public can be convinced is useful, doesn’t cost too much, and makes their cellphones better than someone else’s. I was wondering how far in the thread Id have to go to see my answer. “Hell no. ‘Requires’?? Talk about government overreach.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-require-cell-phones-to-have-radiation-sensors/835229.md?page=1)