# Should the government tell Apple how it hacked the iPhone? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2016, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517 "2016-03-29T13:43:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/61 "2016-03-30T23:02:28Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Is there supposed to be some text between these statements that would establish some sort of logical linkage between the former and the latter? A backdoor in the commonly understood sense allows the government to break into a phone without physical possession of it. Cook and everyone else thinks this is a bad thing because of the government can do it a hacker can also. So a hacker in Russia say can steal your data and do other bad things. If the exploit requires physical possession of the phone the hacker in Russia is going to have a hard time causing you grief. Consider credit cards. If using your credit card number required physical possession of the card, we’d all be in better shape. It would not cut credit card fraud to zero, but it would eliminate mass thefts of credit card information. In this case a back door would be a government requirement for each vendor to write down your credit card information so that it could be accessed with a court order if necessary - but this makes it accessible to thieves also, and is a bad idea. Now it is certainly possible that Apple has such a big flaw in their security that the phone could be broken into remotely, but I’ve seen no evidence of this and I don’t think they are that incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/62 "2016-03-30T23:08:28Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > None of the possible ways you’ve read about were used, though. If they were viable and well-known, the FBI would have already used them, no? > > It’s generally the case that remote vulnerabilities are less common and more valuable than non-remote vulnerabilities. But that doesn’t tell us anything in particular about the unknown vulnerability in question that was actually used. I’ve read about several potential methods that could have been used by a third party, some more plausible than others, and none involved remote access. Do you know of anyone mentioning such? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/63 "2016-03-30T23:12:13Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It doesn’t matter because the FBI’s mission is, in part, to protect American businesses and American citizens from cyber threats. They’re derelict in their duty if they don’t. And go ask some revenge porn victims if nude pictures should or should not be left unsecured. I agree. However revenge porn, as I understand it, often comes from forwarding pictures more or less legitimately acquired. If someone lets a third party have their phone or computer, and information is extracted, it is not primarily a security problem for the manufacturer. Even back in the good old days, all the security in the world won’t help if you let random people into your computer room unsupervised. And give them unlimited to to break in. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/64 "2016-03-30T23:28:48Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I agree. However revenge porn, as I understand it, often comes from forwarding pictures more or less legitimately acquired. If someone lets a third party have their phone or computer, and information is extracted, it is not primarily a security problem for the manufacturer. > Even back in the good old days, all the security in the world won’t help if you let random people into your computer room unsupervised. And give them unlimited to to break in. Right, but those women (and some men, I suppose) sure wish they’d have been able to keep their nude pictures and videos secure. Whether it was hackers or their own incompetence, the damage is the same. Most hackers don’t want dick pics because they’re not valuable. But maybe the President’s is? Or corporate executives? Anyone could be blackmailed if hackers have easy access to your nudes. The point is it’s not your decision, or the government’s, what is important to keep secure and what isn’t. It should be the FBI’s job to prevent data theft, but they’ve made clear they have no intention of doing that. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/65 "2016-03-31T02:00:25Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Wouldn’t Google’s android customers be better off if the government pointed out their security vulnerabilities as well? Sure. If the government knew of a vulnerability, I’d hope they’d share that with Google. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > It’s not the mission of the federal government to make people’s products better. I would think protecting the privacy if its citizens is part of that mission. > [@Voyager](#): > > First, as mentioned above, the government probably doesn’t own the method. Apple is free to try to buy it from the probable owner. Unless that would be admitting weakness. And if Apple did get the answer, would they be willing to pay for it by not saying screw you to the court’s request to unlock a phone as requested by the owner of the phone? Sure. Whatever. Doesn’t have anything to do with my post though. I take issue with the idea that they are so happy that the government might be able to strengthen Apple’s security but won’t. Because…? Revenge? A way to stick it to Apple? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/66 "2016-03-31T02:07:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Voyager** : > > A backdoor in the commonly understood sense allows the government to break into a phone without physical possession of it. Commonly understood by whom? A backdoor just means a method designed into a device to gain access through some means other than the standard one (the front door). That can just as easily be a local method as a remote one. ---
**Author:** ![Chihuahua](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dec6dc/32.png) [@Chihuahua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chihuahua)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/67 "2016-03-31T02:15:46Z")
If the government is my slave, then I command them to withhold the secret of iPhone hacking. Problem solved. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/68 "2016-03-31T04:31:31Z")
> [@Yookeroo](#): > > Sure. Whatever. Doesn’t have anything to do with my post though. I take issue with the idea that they are so happy that the government might be able to strengthen Apple’s security but won’t. Because…? Revenge? A way to stick it to Apple? Easy. For one thing I feel a bit better if the government has a way of reading the iPhones of terrorists as long as some random person can’t use it to break into a phone sitting in my pocket. There is, after all, all sorts of precedent for the government with a court order to read things normally private. Second, Apple definitely was giving me at least the impression of almost taunting the government by saying that their security was so good that the only way into the phone was through them, and they weren’t going to help. So, their hubris is being punished. Maybe they can ask a court to make the government tell them. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/69 "2016-03-31T04:34:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Commonly understood by whom? A backdoor just means a method designed into a device to gain access through some means other than the standard one (the front door). That can just as easily be a local method as a remote one. A backdoor is provided. Driving a tank through the rear wall of a house is not the same as the builder making a hidden backdoor. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/70 "2016-03-31T10:36:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > A backdoor in the commonly understood sense allows the government to break into a phone without physical possession of it. Wrong. A backdoor in the commonly understood sense allows the security to be bypassed. The extra qualifications (“the government”, “physical possession”) you shoved in are not part of the definition. > [@](#): > > Cook and everyone else thinks this is a bad thing because of the government can do it a hacker can also. So a hacker in Russia say can steal your data and do other bad things. Yes; adding a backdoor would make that possible, among other bad things. Depending on whether or not the backdoor was of a specific subset that required physical access, he could use it directly or sell it to local thieves. > [@](#): > > If the exploit requires physical possession of the phone …and if the phone owner takes his porridge with sugar… ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/71 "2016-03-31T11:01:06Z")
I see the problem; **Voyager** appears to be one of those people worried about terrorists: > [@Voyager](#): > > Easy. For one thing I feel a bit better if the government has a way of reading the iPhones of terrorists as long as some random person can’t use it to break into a phone sitting in my pocket. Let’s talk about realistic risks. Millions of phones end up in someone else’s pocket. Most people use them for banking, looking up health information, etc. And every business I’ve worked for has conducted business over them. So we’re dealing with actual risks to commerce and privacy. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/72 "2016-03-31T13:03:12Z")
The government would like to use warrants to search phones in other criminal cases besides terrorism. But personally, I don’t think it’s important enough to impede security for everyone else. Before cellphones, the internet, etc., the only way the government could access your conversations was to have an agent in the room eavesdropping. Now, even with 100% secure, encrypted phones, they have phone records and metadata. It’s not as big an improvement as the spy-hungry feds and police would like, but it’s an improvement nonetheless. If you can’t open a phone even with a warrant, that only puts you in the position of an investigator from the 70s. Civilization didn’t end then, and it won’t end now. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/73 "2016-03-31T13:25:00Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > I see the problem; **Voyager** appears to be one of those people worried about terrorists Part of the problem is that he isn’t worried so much about actual terrorists as he is about the cartoon caricatures on the teevee. Even a cursory study of the former reveals that iPhones simply aren’t an issue; nobody buys an expensive phone to use as a throwaway “burner” (which is the actual tactic generally used to avoid pre-attack surveillance). > [@](#): > > So we’re dealing with actual risks to commerce and privacy. Ironically, one of the risks to commerce is criminal gangs (including the financial support “tail” of terrorist groups) taking advantage of backdoors. If anything, installing backdoors into the cybersecurity infrastructure aids terrorist groups. > [@DrCube](#): > > Before cellphones, the internet, etc., the only way the government could access your conversations was to have an agent in the room eavesdropping. Which they can still do, and it will be every bit as effective now as it was then, encryption or no encryption. There is no issue of the government having less access to information, only an issue of them not having their access to information expanded as much as they might like. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517/74 "2016-04-01T00:26:17Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Easy. For one thing I feel a bit better if the government has a way of reading the iPhones of terrorists as long as some random person can’t use it to break into a phone sitting in my pocket. There is, after all, all sorts of precedent for the government with a court order to read things normally private. I sure don’t feel better about this. > [@Voyager](#): > > Second, Apple definitely was giving me at least the impression of almost taunting the government by saying that their security was so good that the only way into the phone was through them, and they weren’t going to help. So, their hubris is being punished. Maybe they can ask a court to make the government tell them. 🙂 “Taunting” and “hubris”? Really? :roll eyes: And punishment! Oh brother. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-government-tell-apple-how-it-hacked-the-iphone/750517.md?page=3)