# Should the King holiday be abolished? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405 "2008-01-21T20:20:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/41 "2008-01-22T00:53:42Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Fair enough. But I thought the holiday came into existence because the idea of honoring him gained enough popular support. [/QUOTE] That’s probably the case. I’m sure President’s Day came about because of the desire to honor Lincoln and Washington but these days it’s all about mattress sales or autodealer liquidation sales. Perhaps our cynical friend, **Diogenes** , is correct and black people tend to take the holiday a bit more seriously. Marc ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/42 "2008-01-22T01:31:42Z")
[QUOTE=Terrifel] For example, Florida celebrated Robert E. Lee’s birthday a couple days ago. We also have state holidays honoring Presidents Lincoln and Davis. We’re a little schizophrenic down here. [/QUOTE] Southerners should remember King as the man who did more for the South – including the **white** South – than any single Southerner in history. Think about it. From 1865 to the Sixties the South was a backward economic colony of the North. Then we became the fastest-booming part of the country. The wider availability of electricity and air conditioning thanks to the Great Society programs had a lot to do with that, but does anyone seriously believe the Southern economic revolution could have happened if the Southern civil rights revolution had not happened first? Segregation was the most important thing holding us back. And King did more than any one person to get rid of it. ---
**Author:** ![Napier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ce73a5/32.png) [@Napier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Napier)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/43 "2008-01-22T01:57:14Z")
\>Since he is usually referred to as “Dr. King,”… Not in this thread, he isn’t. Your line is one of only two such references, and he’s the one we are all talking about. ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/44 "2008-01-22T02:03:06Z")
[QUOTE=monstro] Maybe as a national holiday. But here in VA, we just “celebrated” Jackson and Lee Day. Imagine celebrating the heros of the Confederacy just a couple of days before celebrating the hero the civil rights movement. [/QUOTE] Hell, until recently they were celebrated on the same date as Jackson-Lee-King Day. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/45 "2008-01-22T04:36:50Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] That’s probably the case. I’m sure President’s Day came about because of the desire to honor Lincoln and Washington but these days it’s all about mattress sales or autodealer liquidation sales. Perhaps our cynical friend, **Diogenes** , is correct and black people tend to take the holiday a bit more seriously. [/QUOTE] There are parades, marches, and various other activities all over the country. [Here](http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/stories/2008/01/21/MLK_0122.html) is a sampling of what went down in Atlanta, and while it wasn’t a company holiday where I work, many people took off to take part in them. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/46 "2008-01-22T05:03:20Z")
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil] Bill Clinton cast a wide net with his penis [/QUOTE] Wasn’t that one of Cyrax’s special moves in Mortal Kombat 3? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/47 "2008-01-22T05:09:45Z")
My college campus is going to have a holiday on March 31 for Cesar Chavez.\* What do you think? \*I assume it’s to give us a little break since we no longer have a spring break due to our new calendar, but perhaps I’m being too cynical. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/48 "2008-01-22T05:27:49Z")
[QUOTE=42fish] Hell, until recently they were celebrated on the same date as Jackson-Lee-King Day. [/QUOTE] My uncle had a problem with his jackson leeking. He had to wear special undergarments and everything. ---
**Author:** ![Frosted\_Glass](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frosted_glass/32/3926_2.png) [@Frosted\_Glass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frosted_Glass)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/49 "2008-01-22T05:32:10Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] I don’t have anything against MLK but I’d say the holiday exist because people like having a day off and not because they feel like honoring him. Seriously, how many people here use this day to celebrate the life of MLK? Without this thread I don’t think I would have given two thoughts about MLK today. I think there’s a point where holidays stop meaning what they’re suppose to mean. [/QUOTE] Before college I would completely agree with you, but now my outlook is different. At my university we do a “day on” instead of a day off, so we go to classes in the morning and have the afternoon off for lectures and community events. As much as I have complained and grumbled about having to come back to school a day early or, this year, having to miss out on a three day weekend, I have given MLK day significantly more attention than normal. If not for morning classes, I would have missed out on several years of interesting and inspiring lectures. So, at the very least it works for some of my peers. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/50 "2008-01-22T05:38:01Z")
That is, in fact, one of my favorite things about MLK day: that it supplanted Robert E. Lee’s Birthday. Now, I respect General Lee. I respect him, and I even respect Forrest. But MLK supplanting their holiday, I can only see as a victory for our country as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/51 "2008-01-22T05:58:29Z")
[QUOTE=DJ Motorbike] Yes, please add more holidays that only government employees have off. Yippie. (sarcasm) I’ve never had President’s day, MLK day, Flag day, Columbus Day or any of the days that only Government workers have off. I call them the “What do you mean there’s no mail . . . oh . . . right.” holidays. We don’t need more of those. [/QUOTE] It’s not just government employees. I work in the private sector (non-unionized, too), and we get MLK Day, President’s Day, and Columbus Day off as company holidays. We don’t get Flag Day off, but then again I don’t think government workers do either. I think this isn’t that unusual in IT. Ed ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/52 "2008-01-22T06:27:08Z")
[QUOTE=dalej42] Martin Luther King, Jr. is the only American to have a holiday in his name. [/QUOTE] What about Washington’s Birthday? That’s right . . . it’s not technically President’s Day although back in the Nixon Administration it came close to having the name changed - thus the common misnomer. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/53 "2008-01-22T06:59:27Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I think that, for the most part, you’re right, but I know for a fact that a lot of people (especially Black people) really do take the day more seriously than people tend to take Presidents’ Day or even Veterans’ Day. It’s not some somber religious holiday where people spend all day in mourning, but it still honors and draws attention to the guy and there is always at least some media recognition of MLK today. [/QUOTE] And there are sales! ---
**Author:** ![Polerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d78d45/32.png) [@Polerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polerius)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/54 "2008-01-22T07:15:21Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] So what? What’s wrong with banging prostitutes? … Personally, I don’t think greatness is defined by moral perfection, but by acheivement, heroism and inspiration in spite of _imperfection_. [/QUOTE] But is there a limit to moral imperfection, beyond which we should not celebrate someone? If there was documented evidence that he raped several 5-year old boys, should we still celebrate him? Obviously, for you, adultery does not rise to that level. But are there things that MLK could have done that you would say “Yes, he was a historic figure and had a huge positive impact on society, but because he did X, I think we should not have a day in his honor” ? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/55 "2008-01-22T07:21:15Z")
[QUOTE=Polerius] But is there a limit to moral imperfection, beyond which we should not celebrate someone? If there was documented evidence that he raped several 5-year old boys, should we still celebrate him? Obviously, for you, adultery does not rise to that level. But are there things that MLK could have done that you would say “Yes, he was a historic figure and had a huge positive impact on society, but because he did X, I think we should not have a day in his honor” ? [/QUOTE] Of course I have limits, but there is a lot of room for flawed greatness before you get to pedophilia. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/56 "2008-01-22T08:16:26Z")
[QUOTE=MGibson] That’s probably the case. I’m sure President’s Day came about because of the desire to honor Lincoln and Washington but these days it’s all about mattress sales or autodealer liquidation sales. Perhaps our cynical friend, **Diogenes** , is correct and black people tend to take the holiday a bit more seriously. Marc [/QUOTE] Of course I can’t speak for all Black people, but in the circles I travel, yes, it’s taken seriously. I have a t-shirt somewhere from the King Center in Atlanta that says “a day of service… not a day off.” I always feel guilty because it’s always a miserable, cold, gray day that I’d much rather spend indoors watching bad telly. But there are always marches and speeches to attend, and usually some event in the community, like a Habitat for Humanity project, that MLK would have endorsed (if he were alive). To top it off, I belong to King’s fraternity, so there is typically something that we do especially for King Day. (I usually don’t do anything and feel guilty about it. I do try to catch the addresses from Ebenezer Baptist Church, or do something that makes it a little more significant than Mattress Sale Day.) Regarding the OP, it’s certainly not wonderful that King was unfaithful to his wife or plagiarized sections of his dissertation. But it simply shows that he was a human being with flaws, like all of us. As others have stated, we don’t celebrate King’s memory because he wrote a great dissertation or because he was a great husband. Some people have a rather bizarre concept of what a hero is - I don’t think it means that a person is without flaws, but rather the impact of their works. Furthermore, it’s not as if the holidays we have for other men in this country - Washington, Lincoln, and Columbus - had flawless lives either. Slave owning, racism, and genocide aren’t exactly winning traits, but I think Washington and Lincoln, at least, have earned the right to have their birthdays celebrated. And I’ll be damned if I ever get worked up enough to have a holiday taken away. I’ve got plenty of issues with Columbus, and I might even spend his holiday at a protest, but I ain’t going to work if it’s one of our holidays. (So happens that at my university, we don’t get that day off.) ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2008, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/57 "2008-01-22T11:37:03Z")
[QUOTE=Argent Towers] Wasn’t that one of Cyrax’s special moves in Mortal Kombat 3? [/QUOTE] FINISH HIM! ---
**Author:** ![DKW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dkw/32/3118_2.png) [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/58 "2008-01-23T02:16:25Z")
I’m perfectly fine with the holiday. His record speaks for itself, and he continued on that noble path without hesitation to literally his dying day. He took an ugly, divisive, virulent issue and made it less ugly, divisive, and virulent. There are few in any era who can claim as much. Yes, I’d have a problem if he committed rape. No, I don’t have a problem with **consensual** sexual relations, whatever the details behind them. If there was a committed relationship involved, well, that’s a personal issue, and it has no bearing on whether or not it’s appropriate to celebrate his life.\* And if I could ask the obvious question, one which is almost always bizarrely ignored…_why don’t you want another day off??_🙂 - Seriously, you need _me_ to tell you all this? I’m DKW, for crying out loud! I don’t even know how that 1920’s Death Ray crap started! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/59 "2008-01-23T02:22:21Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] Thomas Jefferson raped slaves. What’s worse. [/QUOTE] You got some evidence to back that up or are you talking about his love affair with Sally Hemmings? Are you implying that there cannot be love between a Master and Slave? And they say political correctness is a fantasy of the right. pshaw ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2008, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405/60 "2008-01-23T02:29:28Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] You got some evidence to back that up or are you talking about his love affair with Sally Hemmings? Are you implying that there cannot be love between a Master and Slave? [/QUOTE] Could Sally Hemmings have refused him if she had wanted to? She was his property–that alone means the two could not have had a mutual affair. It’s much safer to assume that they only had a sexual relationship rather than a “loving” anything. Because if he had loved her, he would have at least freed her and/or their (alleged) children. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-king-holiday-be-abolished/434405.md?page=4)