# Should the media help mass murderers get famous? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 20, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885 "2012-07-20T20:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/61 "2012-07-21T21:44:49Z")
> [@Inbred\_Mm\_domesticus](#): > > It’s simple, people have things they are interested in. There is a massive amount of information and entertainment available via the cultural products captured by the term “media”. People sort through this massive amount of information to get what they think is interesting. War buffs probably read mostly about the military and warfare. Isolated, mentally ill, angry, failing young males read about murderers and slaughter. You’re not going to prevent them from their fascination with people who have performed the acts they fantasize about. It’s not about an interested person being aware of another person or event. It’s about being infamous, a grotesque celebrity known and reviled by millions. > [@](#): > > It’s ethical for the news to report information about an event. The more accurate and honest their reporting, the more they challenge incomplete and dishonest information, the more ethical their behavior. That’s their job, no more and no less. > > Here are legitimate purposes of releasing the names and faces of the perpetrators: > > 1. So potential witnesses may provide additional information that teaches us more about the crime. > 2. So that people that lived and worked with the perpetrator take a 2nd look at how the perpetrator left their home and workspace (say…if they left a bomb in their home or in the research facility this guy worked at). > 3. So that people see that the perpetrator didn’t have a special face or horns or dragon wings; that complete psychopaths can look pretty normal. It personalizes it for us. > 4. So that I am informed, because I have every right in the world to be completely informed about the events that occur in my community. I can turn off the TV if the coverage gets to be repetitive or too much. None of these are affected by withholding names from the general public. Anyone with a personal tie to the killer will have no question as to his identity. I’ll ask again: Should NBC broadcast instructions on how to build a bomb? I could come up with a bunch of reasons for it that are at least as legitimate as those you gave above. > [@](#): > > A symptom is mass murdering, a further symtom is fascination with historical murderers, and probably another symptom is buying lots of guns. The disease is progressive development of a distorted worldview justifying mass murder to avenge their personal failures. Hiding the names of perpetrators is not going to prevent the development of the disease; they will idolize Ghenghis Khan or Vikings or Hitler if they have to. The symptoms of psychopathy is irrelevant here. We’re talking about triggers and motivators associated with the behavior. > [@](#): > > If, and I say if, because those cites you provided expressly did not support your point about fame-seeking among mass murderers. The cites absolutely make the case for fame-seeking killers. Harris and Klebold wrote at length about how they wanted to make a lasting impression, about how the world would know their names and see them as god-like. They were motivated by revenge for sure, but they didn’t just kill the kids who taunted them. They planned for weeks an event that would get as much attention outside their school and town as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/62 "2012-07-21T21:51:40Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > It’s about being infamous, a grotesque celebrity known and reviled by millions. The reason they become infamous is because people are fascinating, grotesque as that may be, by stuff like this. > [@](#): > > Anyone with a personal tie to the killer will have no question as to his identity. And the shooting will be front page, top story news on every channel and anyone interested around the world will Google the name. So there will be plenty of attention to crime and the killer. But for some reason if the name is not in print or on TV, that’ll deter these attacks. This is really a nonsense argument. > [@](#): > > I could come up with a bunch of reasons for it that are at least as legitimate as those you gave above. I very much doubt that. > [@](#): > > We’re talking about triggers and motivators associated with the behavior. We’re talking about things you think are triggers and motivators. Where did you get your psychology degree again? ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/63 "2012-07-21T22:37:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The reason they become infamous is because people are fascinating, grotesque as that may be, by stuff like this. Doesn’t change the fact that massive news coverage will be the primary vehicle to achieve that fame. > [@](#): > > And the shooting will be front page, top story news on every channel and anyone interested around the world will Google the name. So there will be plenty of attention to crime and the killer. But for some reason if the name is not in print or on TV, that’ll deter these attacks. This is really a nonsense argument. Knowing you’ll be Googled is a far cry from knowing every news anchor and talk show host in the country will be saying your name for months at least, that they’ll be showing your picture while the President speaks at your crime scene. > [@](#): > > I very much doubt that. Watch me: -Parents might be tipped off if they recognize those parts in their kid’s rooms. Same for neighbors on the look-out for potential terrorists. -Law enforcement could be assisted if more people could spot a bomb. -Would raise awareness about how easy it is for average people to build a bomb, enabling us to better protect ourselves. And, of course, your favorite: -I have a right to know. Plus, it’s on the Internet anyway. > [@](#): > > We’re talking about things you think are triggers and motivators. Where did you get your psychology degree again? I don’t need a psychology degree to read the evaluations from those who do… or the killers own words. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/64 "2012-07-21T22:48:28Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And the shooting will be front page, top story news on every channel and anyone interested around the world will Google the name. So there will be plenty of attention to crime and the killer. But for some reason if the name is not in print or on TV, that’ll deter these attacks. This is really a nonsense argument. My point as well would be that resposible new sites, the largest of which are subsidiaries of the mainstream print and broadcast media, would follow suit. Plus, the number of people motivated enough to search it would be quite a bit smaller than those having it drilled in by relentless new coverage. The fame achieved from inclusion on blogs and lesser-trafficked news sites wouldn’t be even close to what it is today. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/65 "2012-07-21T23:41:26Z")
It dosen’t matter. Fame dosen’t change what happened, which is what matters. Whether famous or not, the victims’ status is unchanged. The victims are what matters. Just like when the media refer to tyrannical dictators and such by their first name… so what? Weird, yes, but insubstantial considering the human cost, which is all that matters. I don’t care if the movie theater shooter “gets famous”. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/66 "2012-07-21T23:51:07Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > It dosen’t matter. Fame dosen’t change what happened, which is what matters. Whether famous or not, the victims’ status is unchanged. The victims are what matters. Just like when the media refer to tyrannical dictators and such by their first name… so what? Weird, yes, but insubstantial considering the human cost, which is all that matters. I don’t care if the movie theater shooter “gets famous”. What should concern you is the possibility that there’s some borderline psychopath out there seeing how famous Holmes is becoming and thinking “that could be me.” Or even worse, “I can do better than that.” That’s the point of this debate. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/67 "2012-07-21T23:59:18Z")
“Should the media help mass murderers get famous?” Your thread title, not mine. Fame means nothing to the people affected by this tragedy. It’s one of, if not the sole, most meaningless aspects of what just happened. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/68 "2012-07-22T00:11:44Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > “Should the media help mass murderers get famous?” > > Your thread title, not mine. Can I assume you think “To Kill a Mockingbird” is a bird hunting manual? ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/69 "2012-07-22T00:25:14Z")
Sure. You can assume anything you want, if it suits you. 😉 Peace Just my 2 cents ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/70 "2012-07-22T03:20:02Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > My point as well would be that resposible new sites, the largest of which are subsidiaries of the mainstream print and broadcast media, would follow suit. . . . During the O.J. Simpson trial, one network (if memory serves) tried not broadcasting daily gavel-to-gavel coverage. They were trying, perhaps heroically, to wean Americans from this absurd diet of pseudo-dramatic pablum. The result? Their ratings plunged. Americans just changed to channels that did give the coverage. It’s our fault. We like this crap. The only way it could work would be by legislative coercion. ---
**Author:** ![Victor\_Charlie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7ea924/32.png) [@Victor\_Charlie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Victor_Charlie)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2012, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/71 "2012-07-22T03:59:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > During the O.J. Simpson trial, one network (if memory serves) tried not broadcasting daily gavel-to-gavel coverage. They were trying, perhaps heroically, to wean Americans from this absurd diet of pseudo-dramatic pablum. > > The result? Their ratings plunged. Americans just changed to channels that did give the coverage. > > It’s our fault. We like this crap. > > The only way it could work would be by legislative coercion. No doubt. I have no illusuions. I work in a television newsroom everyday. As much as at least a few are conflicted, it’s well out of their hands. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2012, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/72 "2012-07-23T20:18:03Z")
> [@Victor\_Charlie](#): > > Knowing you’ll be Googled is a far cry from knowing every news anchor and talk show host in the country will be saying your name for months at least, that they’ll be showing your picture while the President speaks at your crime scene. I don’t know why you are so fixated on the name specifically. Even if the name is redacted from coverage, the shooting will be national news, the president will speak at the crime scene, and so on and so on. And the name will be all over the web regardless. I would think that would still give the lunatic the satisfaction of knowing he’d made a splash. You have no basis for concluding that this tweak would prevent even one shooting spree. There’s no basis to even suggest it. You are making some very big assumptions about the motives and logic of people who are violently insane. > [@](#): > > -Parents might be tipped off if they recognize those parts in their kid’s rooms. Same for neighbors on the look-out for potential terrorists. People don’t need to know the ingredients of a bomb for this. > [@](#): > > -Law enforcement could be assisted if more people could spot a bomb. Law enforcement can already do its own job and dealing with tons of false bomb reports will not help them. > [@](#): > > -Would raise awareness about how easy it is for average people to build a bomb, enabling us to better protect ourselves. This makes no sense at all and is counterproductive. > [@](#): > > -I have a right to know. Plus, it’s on the Internet anyway. I don’t think you do have a right to have the TV news broadcast bomb-making instructions, actually. I’d love to hear your explanation for how that falls into your right to know. I think it’s pretty easy to make the case that the public needs to be informed about crimes and criminal trial proceedings since that’s fundamental to our justice system. We have a strong presumption against things like secret trials, and unfortunately, **John Mace** is correct that you’re arguing for something that points in that direction. My argument isn’t so much that we need to know the names of people who do crazy things like this, it’s that this should be the public’s decision to make and not the decision of the press (particularly since I find your reasoning to have very little credibility) and that our commitment to an open society and the interests of 300 million people getting their news is more important than your fear that a couple of maniacs will want to get on the news by killing people. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/73 "2012-07-24T06:30:57Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Well yes, but the only information I’m suggesting that the news agencies voluntarily withhold is the name and photo of the accused. Just don’t give his name notoriety. I’m sure it will get out via other means to those who really really want to know. That’s fine. but don’t splash his name and photo in huge font across the front page. > > If the public does not get his name and photo blasted at them from the media 24/7 for the next 5 days, I don’t think that the essential well being of the public will be damaged, or that they will be unsafe for not knowing his name, or that the justice system will be called into disrepute because CNN is not showing his picture every 10 minutes. I don’t get this. You don’t think there should be any sort of legislative change, you just want people to up and start behaving the way you think they should behave, all on their own. If we’re going to sit around wishing that people would just voluntarily act better, why not wish that people wouldn’t go around shooting each other? Anyway, the whole idea seems pointless, unless you’re going to cover up the fact that a crime happened at all. I don’t remember, off the top of my head, the name of the guy at Virgina Tech, or the two losers at Columbine, or the farmer in the '20s who loaded his truck with dynamite and scrap metal and blew up a school. They’re fresh in my head now, because I’ve just read their names in this thread, but if you’d asked me yesterday, I \*might \*have been able to come up with the name of one of the Columbine shooters. I don’t think I’m entirely atypical in that regard. They’re still famous, though, through their actions, if not their names. Columbine is synonymous with violent mass murder because of Klebold and Harris. For people with that sort of mentality, that’s likely fame enough. I don’t think the fact that people around the country are talking about “the Batman Shooter” is a sufficiently lesser plateau of fame to dissuade someone like Holmes from being a killer. There’s certainly a rich enough history of criminals becoming famous while deliberately obscuring their identities: Jack the Ripper, the Zodiac Killer, &c. Anonymity is not a proven dissuasion for attention-seeking psychopaths. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/74 "2012-07-24T11:30:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t get this. You don’t think there should be any sort of legislative change, you just want people to up and start behaving the way you think they should behave, all on their own. What’s so strange about that? Plenty of industries have codes of practice or codes of ethics that are effectively binding without being based in legislation. In fact, just such a code of practice for the reporting of mass-murders has been suggested by Dr Park Dietz: > [@](#): > > Dr Park Dietz is America’s leading forensic psychiatrist, and he has extensively interviewed many of the country’s most notorious mass murderers, from Jeffrey Dahmer to Andrea Yates. His research found that, in a country the size of the US, “ **saturation-level news coverage of mass murder causes, on average, one more mass murder in the next two weeks** ”. > [@sugested guidelines](#): > > "If you don’t want to propagate more mass murders… > Don’t start the story with sirens blaring. > Don’t have photographs of the killer. > Don’t make this 24/7 coverage. > Do everything you can not to make the body count the lead story. > Not to make the killer some kind of anti-hero. > Do localise this story to the affected community and as boring as possible in every other market. " Now, I don’t see any reason why the media couldn’t choose to report in such a way. The news (that a lot of people have been killed by a nutter) still gets out. There’s no question of stealth-totalitarianism preventing people from knowing what’s happening in the world. It’s simply a question of choosing to present the information in a way that minimises the likelihood of the event being a catalyst for other dangerously mentally ill people. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/75 "2012-07-24T11:33:10Z")
[This](http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/Police-Colo-shooting-articles-found-during-Maine-gun-seizure/-/9848876/15646338/-/s65a4a/-/index.html#ixzz21XSkyTDe)is just one of those bizarre coincidences: > [@](#): > > Trooper Phil Alexander stopped Timothy Courtois, 49, for doing 112 mph on the Maine Turnpike in York Sunday morning, authorities said. Motorists had reported seeing a speeding Mustang with its flashers on. > > Upon pulling him over, Alexander found an assault rifle, four handguns and several boxes of ammunition, they said. Also found inside his car were recent news clippings of the mass shooting at the Colorado movie theater, police said. > > The guns that we found in the car were reported to be similar to what the shooter in Colorado had. He had an assault rifle, a tactical shotgun, four handguns, a newspaper with the Colorado shooting as the headline story," Alexander said. > > Courtois also told authorities that he was on his way to Derry, N.H., to shoot a former employer ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/76 "2012-07-24T11:44:16Z")
It’s a copycat, except this one wanted to be caught before he killed anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885/77 "2012-07-24T12:00:44Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#): > > It’s a copycat, except this one wanted to be caught before he killed anyone? He was pulled over for speeding. Not sure how intentional that was. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-media-help-mass-murderers-get-famous/628885.md?page=3)