# Should the Minimum Wage Be Increased to $15? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 28, 2021, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945 "2021-02-28T14:26:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/81 "2021-03-01T13:51:28Z")
> [@kitap](#): > > “Don’t raise minimum!” Is the battle cry of people who have never ever tried to live on it in the modern era. Part of the debate is over whether minimum wage _should_ be a livable wage, or whether it’s okay for there to exist jobs that pay less than a living wage, held by people who just want to make some extra money. (I used to lean toward the latter position, and to think that as long as there _were_ plenty of liveable-wage jobs available, it wasn’t really a problem that there were also some that weren’t. I’m less inclined to make that argument nowadays.) ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/82 "2021-03-01T13:53:40Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > So if one of my employees fails to make any sales one week, should I have to still pay him $15 an hour for being here? I dunno, does he still need to eat? I used to believe there was a place for multiple levels of activity to ensure Americans, and their families, have enough money to survive. Minimum Wage, Food Stamps, WIC, Welfare, Section 8 Housing, etc. MW to set a very low baseline since not EVERY job has to support a family, and targeted support from other programs to ensure moms and children and families can get by even if MW is the only job they can get. I don’t believe this anymore, because a huge chunk of people in this country want to weaponize any direct payments or support from the government. Anyone who accepts that support is targeted for punishment and dehumanization, ridiculed and dismissed as valued participants in our society. So, that chunk of the country can go fuck itself. Minimum wage is where it’s at, it’s what I support. $15, $20 whatever it takes to make sure workers don’t need public assistance is what the number should be. If people don’t like a high MW, don’t take it up with me, I was on your side not that long ago, and the whole idea was ruined by selfish judgmental bastards. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/83 "2021-03-01T13:54:43Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@kitap](#): > > > > “Don’t raise minimum!” Is the battle cry of people who have never ever tried to live on it in the modern era. > > Part of the debate is over whether minimum wage _should_ be a livable wage, or whether it’s okay for there to exist jobs that pay less than a living wage, held by people who just want to make some extra money. > > (I used to lean toward the latter position, and to think that as long as there _were_ plenty of liveable-wage jobs available, it wasn’t really a problem that there were also some that weren’t. I’m less inclined to make that argument nowadays.) That argument reminds me someone I knew who thought it was okay to pay married women less because “their husband is the main breadwinner”. And his mother was part owner of where he worked and was very active in it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/84 "2021-03-01T14:38:08Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > [@kitap](#): > > > > “Don’t raise minimum!” Is the battle cry of people who have never ever tried to live on it in the modern era. > > Part of the debate is over whether minimum wage _should_ be a livable wage, or whether it’s okay for there to exist jobs that pay less than a living wage, held by people who just want to make some extra money. > > (I used to lean toward the latter position, and to think that as long as there _were_ plenty of liveable-wage jobs available, it wasn’t really a problem that there were also some that weren’t. I’m less inclined to make that argument nowadays.) How would it even work to have some sub-minimum wage jobs that are just for people who need to make a little extra money? What if no one comes forward who fits that? No teenagers living at home and supported by their parents? But you do get applications from desperate people who do need the money to support themselves and maybe others. Perhaps they lie and say, “No, I don’t need a living wage.” In effect, you would end up with a lower minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/85 "2021-03-01T14:39:01Z")
If all the billionaires in America want to give up all their money for a $15 minimum wage, I say go for it! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/86 "2021-03-01T14:42:52Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > > > (I used to lean toward the latter position, and to think that as long as there _were_ plenty of liveable-wage jobs available, it wasn’t really a problem that there were also some that weren’t. I’m less inclined to make that argument nowadays.) > > How would it even work to have some sub-minimum wage jobs that are just for people who need to make a little extra money? What if no one comes forward who fits that? No teenagers living at home and supported by their parents? But you do get applications from desperate people who do need the money to support themselves and maybe others. Notice the condition “as long as there were plenty of liveable-wage jobs available.” Under that condition, those desperate people who need the money to support themselves would be applying for those jobs that they _could_ support themselves on. So if no one comes forward willing to work for what you’re offering, you either raise what you’re offering, or you don’t hire anyone. ---
**Author:** ![kitap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@kitap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kitap)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/87 "2021-03-01T15:09:19Z")
But why is the default “sucky wages are **good** ”? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/88 "2021-03-01T15:30:51Z")
That’s really the kicker; outside of the minimum wage, one’s wages/salary are determined by how scarce that labor you’re providing to the market is. Making minimum wage means that your set of skills and experience are so fungible that there’s no reason to pay you any more than the legally mandated minimum. Put another way, literally everyone else has what you bring to the table, and there’s no reason for an employer to pay you more. Anyone can flip burgers in a fast food restaurant. Anyone can work at a retail store. One thing the minimum wage does is lump unskilled and minimally skilled workers together as there’s little way to distinguish them from each other if you have to pay minimum wage. Contrast that with say a cardiologist. They have a set of skills that is NOT common, and that are very valuable in conjunction with his experience. Not everyone can be a duly educated and licensed cardiologist, so it’s worth a dramatically higher salary. Now if the economy is such that even minimally skilled/unskilled labor is scarce, then starting wages for those sorts of jobs rise naturally as employers try to attract workers through higher wages. This is probably what’s happening with Walmart, McDonalds, etc… The problem as I see it with raising the minimum wage is that it basically lumps EVERYONE who used to make under the raised amount into the minimum wage category. It’s not like people making $12 /hr today are going to make $19.75 under a $15 minimum wage; they’re just going to basically get a 4.75 pay cut relative to minimum wage. Which is going to hurt if there is inflation, etc… associated with the raise. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/89 "2021-03-01T15:37:48Z")
So many excuses for something that has been put off far too long and is planned for being phased in. If Minimum wage was just tied to Cost of Living, then politicians would have to worry about voting for it. Same with gas taxes and a lot of other items that politicians are desperately afraid to be shown to have voted for. This country can be so stupid sometimes. Bump, if you’re good at your job and it takes some skill and your boss pays you minimum wage, suddenly you’ll have new options open up. That is also how this works. Some other place will be looking for a good and skilled AP Clerk and offer $17.50 per hour instead of $15. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/90 "2021-03-01T15:53:48Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > One issue with a high minimum wage today is that the ability for retail to use automation is more viable than ever. A business can enable touch-screen ordering systems, self-scan checkouts, robotic stocking systems, robotic burger flippers, etc. In the past it wasn’t really possible to automate the many tasks performed by an employee, but that’s not the case anymore. A higher minimum wage might speed up that process but many employers have been going in that direction for a number of years. The fast food industry in particular is noteworthy for their efforts over the last few decades to ensure their employees were low skilled, easily replaceable, and most importantly low paid. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/91 "2021-03-01T16:48:21Z")
I’m not sure what the problem with that is. The fact that we pay teachers crap is a poor excuse for paying retail employees crap. Unless we think that raising the minimum wage will have less people going into skilled (or semi-skilled) labor, creating a shortage, and putting wage pressure in those places. And that doesn’t seem bad to me. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/92 "2021-03-01T16:56:22Z")
> [@bump](#): > > It’s not like people making $12 /hr today are going to make $19.75 under a $15 minimum wage; they’re just going to basically get a 4.75 pay cut relative to minimum wage. Conceptually, folks making $4.75 over MW today have skills above and beyond a typical MW worker, and can handle responsibilities above and beyond a MW worker. That doesn’t just vanish if MW increases. Now, they may not get the full $4.75, but the market pressure to pay them above MW will remain. And… they’re getting a $3/hr raise, an extra 25% income. 25%! You’re worried about “inflation, etc.”, calling it a “pay cut” when they’re pulling home 25% more pay than before? ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/93 "2021-03-01T16:57:42Z")
Is that the chicken or the egg though? It doesn’t behoove employers of minimum wage jobs to make them more skilled or more difficult. If they do, they face larger hurdles in terms of retention, training, etc… and yes, demands for higher wages. All of those things cost money. And it’s all for the same exact product that goes into the customer’s hand regardless of the minimum wage. They can raise prices, eat the difference, or figure out a way to cut costs. Guess which one they’ll choose? And this is already the case at 7.25/hr. More than doubling that will make that math more acute, and various sorts of automation might become viable. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/94 "2021-03-01T17:07:12Z")
Yes, it will. There will be a loss of some jobs, especially in fast food. Without the minimum wage increase, we’re already seeing less cashiers in retail (esp. grocery). That isn’t tied to minimum wage. Automation is happening and will keep happening. But the “big” jump we’re about to experience is because of the nearly criminal lack of minimum wage increases over the decades. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/95 "2021-03-01T17:14:53Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > the nearly criminal lack of minimum wage increases over the decades. If they’d have been smart back when the minimum wage was introduced, they’d have pegged it to something that varied with the economy in such a way that increases would have basically been imperceptible as they’d happen annually or biennially like clockwork, not in weird bursts roughly every 10-15 years. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/96 "2021-03-01T17:18:02Z")
Absolutely, I’m mentioned that at least once already in this thread. > [@What\_Exit](#): > > If Minimum wage was just tied to Cost of Living, then politicians would have to worry about voting for it. I also mentioned it should vary by state as … > [@What\_Exit](#): > > I think Minimum Wage should reflect cost of living. Probably ranging from $12/ hour up to $20/ hour. > > IRC a dollar in NYC is worth about $1.70 in non-urban Tennessee. Just an example, I’ll dig for cites if needed. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/97 "2021-03-01T17:19:11Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > But on average they pull $80 an hour on tips every hour worked. Why should he supplement that more than the $2.33 an hour he’s required to? It’s probably a moot issue, since pay is pay. If they’re making $80/hr, then they’re obviously doing much better than the wage floor. Raising the minimum wage wouldn’t change life much for servers who are raking in the cash, but for those who aren’t getting a piece of the tipping action - presumably making the minimum - it might make life a little easier. A restaurant in which servers are getting paid $80 is a restaurant in which managers are probably getting paid well, too. Restaurants usually have high markups. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/98 "2021-03-01T17:21:01Z")
Beyond the politicians voting, you don’t have the “shock” to the economy either. Moving from 7.25 to 7.32/hr isn’t going to change anyone’s bottom line in a way that’s going to make them change course dramatically, unlike going from 7.25 to 15 an hour. That absolutely will change companies’ bottom lines and may accelerate automation, offshoring, etc… basically anything that will reduce labor costs. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/99 "2021-03-01T17:28:13Z")
**Though it is suppose to phase in**. Don’t assume this is going to be a law is passed and doubling of salaries. I’ve mostly heard a 4 year plan to get it up. In NJ the $8.75 to $15 is over a 5 year period I believe. Not due to hit $15 until 2024. Instead of guessing, I looked it up. The law raised the minimum wage to $10 per hour on July 1, 2019 $11 per hour on Jan. 1, 2020. Then $1 every year until reaching $15 per hour in 2024. The minimum wage will increase at a slower rate for small businesses with six or fewer employees, seasonal businesses, and farm labor. The bill also effectively increased tipped workers’ minimum wage rates and increased the training wage. [Minimum Wage Law (P.L.2019, c.32) - NJBIA](https://njbia.org/minimum-wage-law-p-l-2019-c-32/#:~:text=4%2C%202019%2C%20Gov.,1%2C%202020). So hopefully, the Federal Law will reflect this fairly well thought out law. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2021, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945/100 "2021-03-01T18:53:20Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’ve mentioned before that a major electronics manufacturer didn’t automate their SE Asian plants because workers were cheaper than machines. We don’t want to go there, I think. I strongly disagree with the notion that wages should be kept low to keep out automation. Such a tactic is devastatingly inhumane. Either the wage is fair or not fair. Asking people to have _wages that are competitive with robots_ is utterly ridiculous. > [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Notice the condition “as long as there were plenty of liveable-wage jobs available.” Under that condition, those desperate people who need the money to support themselves would be applying for those jobs that they _could_ support themselves on. If there are plenty of liveable-wage jobs available, why would anyone work at at job that paid less. The point is, there are NOT enough liveable-wage jobs in existence. So yes, I suppose in fantasy land everyone can have a pony too. But in the real world, there isn’t a division between people who need a job to live on and teenagers looking to make a little extra money. I worked a MW job in high school, and yes, I didn’t care that it paid low because I had parents supporting me (and I was so damn bored in the summer). But I also worked with adults scraping out a living. I hope they were paid more, but I don’t know. Maybe back then, but now with cut-throat corporate? I doubt it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-increased-to-15/933945.md?page=6)