# Should the minimum wage be lowered to $6 per hour? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463 "2013-02-26T20:35:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Evil\_Economist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c89c15/32.png) [@Evil\_Economist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Economist)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/21 "2013-02-26T23:03:16Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I would be in favor of a minimum wage if slavery was still legal. As all employment arrangements are now voluntary, a minimum wage is unnecessary. Minimum wages have the effect of making illegal mutually beneficial contracts _that do not harm anyone else_. That’s all that needs to be said on the issue. Well, if you decide what needs to be said on an issue, who are we to argue? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/22 "2013-02-26T23:05:49Z")
Why do I have the feeling that none of the people here arguing against raising the minimum wage, or arguing in favor of lowering it, are currently attempting to make ends meet on minimum wage? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/23 "2013-02-26T23:50:34Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > That pre-supposes that power is distributed equally between employer and employee, and that all people have the capacity to earn a living wage in the economy of the time. Since neither of these are true, it can hardly be said that ‘all employement arrangements are voluntary’. I didn’t presuppose anything at all. Neither side has the power to force the other to enter a contract. That is the only relevant power in this situation. Neither did I presuppose that all people have the capacity to earn a living wage in a given economy any more then I presupposed that all businesses had the capacity to pay someone more than they’re able to produce. Since the employer doesn’t have the power to force the employee to work for him, the contract is indeed voluntary. Maybe our definition of voluntary is where there is a lapse in communication. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2013, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/24 "2013-02-26T23:57:58Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Since the employer doesn’t have the power to force the employee to work for him, the contract is indeed voluntary. Maybe our definition of voluntary is where there is a lapse in communication. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Why do I have the feeling that none of the people here arguing against raising the minimum wage, or arguing in favor of lowering it, are currently attempting to make ends meet on minimum wage? Because people like WillFarnaby have zero clue about the economic reality of low wages and how people live. They only have their own context to go by and their own experience, without the benefit of really thinking about it, learning about it and the simple act of Empathy. No one with half an ounce of common sense who has spent more than a fraction of a second either living on these wages, knowing someone they love on these wages or having really thought about what it means to try to make ends meet on these wages and/or what it means to our economy seriously thinks that ‘no minimum wage’ is a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/25 "2013-02-27T00:12:36Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Why do I have the feeling that none of the people here arguing against raising the minimum wage, or arguing in favor of lowering it, are currently attempting to make ends meet on minimum wage? Because so few Americans make MW that a small, random sample like this would probably not turn anyone up who does? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/26 "2013-02-27T00:18:08Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I would be in favor of a minimum wage if slavery was still legal. As all employment arrangements are now voluntary, a minimum wage is unnecessary. Minimum wages have the effect of making illegal mutually beneficial contracts _that do not harm anyone else_. That’s all that needs to be said on the issue. Sadly for you, it isn’t. An employment arrangement is “voluntary” if you think the employee not having food and shelter is something they can shrug off and choose to live without, but that’s not reality. People still _need_ jobs, even if there isn’t an actual gun to their heads. And if you think employers wouldn’t exploit their workers’ need for money to pay for basic necessities without minimum wage laws (or aren’t doing so even with them in place), give me some of the drugs you’re taking. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/27 "2013-02-27T00:18:29Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I didn’t presuppose anything at all. Neither side has the power to force the other to enter a contract. That is the only relevant power in this situation. Neither did I presuppose that all people have the capacity to earn a living wage in a given economy any more then I presupposed that all businesses had the capacity to pay someone more than they’re able to produce. > > Since the employer doesn’t have the power to force the employee to work for him, the contract is indeed voluntary. Maybe our definition of voluntary is where there is a lapse in communication. Employee: I can’t afford to feed my family on what you’re paying me. I need a $1/hour raise. Employer: Fuck you, you’re fired. Yeah, totally voluntary. I spent years with my head stuck in the libertarian/“free market” sand. Once you pull it out and look around you’ll be amazed at how the world really works. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/28 "2013-02-27T00:21:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Why do I have the feeling that none of the people here arguing against raising the minimum wage, or arguing in favor of lowering it, are currently attempting to make ends meet on minimum wage? Probably because we’re talking about economics, not emotions. ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/29 "2013-02-27T00:26:09Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Probably because we’re talking about economics, not emotions. Indeed. Because people being able to survive on their paychecks have no place in a discussion of the minimum wage. ---
**Author:** ![PigArcher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@PigArcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigArcher)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/30 "2013-02-27T00:26:28Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Why do I have the feeling that none of the people here arguing against raising the minimum wage, or arguing in favor of lowering it, are currently attempting to make ends meet on minimum wage? > [@bump](#): > > Probably because we’re talking about economics, not emotions. That is economics. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/31 "2013-02-27T00:27:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I think you have a rather strange view of “corporations”, rather akin to the way that believers in woo talk about “chemicals.” > > Strictly speaking any incorporated company is a “corporation”, from the smallest 1 person company to huge ones like Exxon-Mobil. Broadly speaking, their goal is to make money, but they(obviously) don’t go about it the same way. > > Paying as little in taxes as possible is hardly unique to corporations. I try and pay as little as I possibly can, while staying within the law. Why? Because it’s my money, not the government’s, and I want to keep as much for me and mine as I can. > > Being “unreasonable” and “uncooperative” is very subjective. If your goal is to make money, then legislation to pay your workers $1.75/hr is something that will hit your bottom line hard if you have a lot of minimum or near-minimum workers. That’s why they fight it. > > Think about it this way- would you take a pay-cut of $1.75/hour without fighting it? To a company, that’s what this amounts to, except that it’s that $1.75/hour for every single minimum wage person, plus whatever booster raises people making under the $9 proposed minimum would cost. For a single worker, that comes out to $3640/yr (at 40 hours per week). That’s not chump change, and unless your workforce is already paid well above minimum, something that will have ramifications well beyond payroll. Ok, well to clarify I’m talking about “major” corporations. Pretty much everything you said there is valid. Corporations have their agenda and work to further it as much as they can. Of course, they are going to fight raising taxes, or minimum wages, because like you said it will hurt their bottom line. You’re right their goal is to “make money.” But, lets not forget about the issue here. **Anonymous User** is proposing lowering the minimum wage to $6 hr. Do you support this? **John Mace** says that we the people need to create our own social safety net. It’s not the corporations responsibility. I happen to agree to a point. Corporations have a lot of wealth and a lot of power. Most of their leaders align with the conservative party who consistently vote to cut taxes and social programs. Keep in mind 46 million americans are living in poverty while 1% of the country owns 40% of the wealth. This trend is continuing and personally I feel like we are being led into dangerous territory. There is a disconnect going on. Corporations aren’t breaking laws because they practically make the laws. We, the people, can’t create our own safety net if corporations have a stranglehold on all the wealth and the government. Also, keep in mind that these corporations operate in our country, so they’re apart of our society. So when I say they’re being unreasonable, I mean that they are fabulously wealthy while huge numbers of people are going without. When I ask are they not partly responsible, I mean why are they in control of so much power and wealth, but off the hook for any of the problems they cause? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/32 "2013-02-27T00:30:48Z")
Given the societal and business costs of poverty (do I really need to recap them here?), our society and thus, our government, have a vested interest in decreeing a minimum wage to reduce poverty and ‘voluntary’ :rolleyes: wage slavery and serfdom. Now let’s look at it from the other side. If a business owner cannot keep his business open while operating _under the exact same laws and regulations as his competition_, then he must be less competent in the operation of his business than his competition. And the fact of the matter is, if his business fails, his market share will either be absorbed by that competition (who are more efficient and competent) or create new openings for other people and companies. If there is a market, it will still exist without his presence. So just think about that every time some business owner whines that a small increase in minimum wage or regulation will drive them out of business. **That person is outing him or herself _as the least competent business owner in their field._** They are demanding government intervention to save themselves from their own inefficiency and incompetence. Fact is, they should be allowed to fail and be replaced by more competent businesspeople. THAT is Capitalism. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/33 "2013-02-27T00:32:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Because so few Americans make MW that a small, random sample like this would probably not turn anyone up who does? As there are definitely unemployed people on this forum I can only assume there are some who are also working minimum wage. I’m not sure why none of them have spoken up here, but I do find it interesting that a person’s championing of the free market seems directly related to how much money they already have. While the percentage of Americans making minimum wage is very small that still amounts to a lot of people in absolute numbers. Maybe I’m just a softee, but I don’t discard people from consideration merely because they are a minority. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/34 "2013-02-27T00:35:06Z")
> [@kenetic](#): > > That is economics. Life is not economics. Life \> economics. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/35 "2013-02-27T00:35:10Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As there are definitely unemployed people on this forum I can only assume there are some who are also working minimum wage. I’m not sure why none of them have spoken up here, but I do find it interesting that a person’s championing of the free market seems directly related to how much money they already have. > > While the percentage of Americans making minimum wage is very small that still amounts to a lot of people in absolute numbers. Maybe I’m just a softee, but I don’t discard people from consideration merely because they are a minority. I wasn’t discarding them. I was just pointing out that there aren’t very many, percentage wise. Some people don’t know that, or are surprised when they find out. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/36 "2013-02-27T00:37:32Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > As there are definitely unemployed people on this forum I can only assume there are some who are also working minimum wage. I’m not sure why none of them have spoken up here, but I do find it interesting that a person’s championing of the free market seems directly related to how much money they already have. > > While the percentage of Americans making minimum wage is very small that still amounts to a lot of people in absolute numbers. Maybe I’m just a softee, but I don’t discard people from consideration merely because they are a minority. Let’s not forget minimum wage is just a number. $8-10 ain’t that much better. There is a lot of people in the $7.15-10 range. ---
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/37 "2013-02-27T00:42:32Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > I didn’t presuppose anything at all. Neither side has the power to force the other to enter a contract. That is the only relevant power in this situation. Neither did I presuppose that all people have the capacity to earn a living wage in a given economy any more then I presupposed that all businesses had the capacity to pay someone more than they’re able to produce. > > Since the employer doesn’t have the power to force the employee to work for him, the contract is indeed voluntary. Maybe our definition of voluntary is where there is a lapse in communication. Ok, true. Neither side has the power to “force” a contract. However, one side has all the money, resources, influence, and all around control. The other side has him/herself and their labor. What do you call that? Maybe a better question is what choice does that individual have? No money and no job means no food, house, clothes, car, etc… Seems pretty limited to me. Indeed, our definition of “voluntary” is different. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/38 "2013-02-27T00:45:29Z")
> [@Anonymous User](#): > > Obama proposes to raise the minimum wage to $9 per hour. However, I think that is completely counter-productive as this will lead to more unemployment and inflated prices. Employers will need to make more money in order to compensate for the increased minimum wage and will also have to unemploy a few of their workers. Unemployment is already an issue and we should be looking to cure this problem by opening more jobs. Raising the minimum wage will do exactly the opposite. Minimum wage jobs are not supposed to be jobs off of which can live off of, but entry level jobs for beginning employees. There is no way we can make minimum wage jobs provide a living wage without seriously crippling the economy due to unemployment and price inflation. However, if the minimum wage is lowered, then employees will be able to hire more employees, helping the unemployment problem. It is true that $6 per hour is a low salary and is not something one can live off of, but the jobs that offer minimum wage were never supposed to be jobs for one to make a living out of. Therefore, instead of raising the minimum wage, should it be lowered to $6 per hour? Have you worked a paying job yet? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/39 "2013-02-27T00:46:43Z")
Common decency demands that we eliminate the minimum wage entirely. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2013, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463/40 "2013-02-27T00:51:45Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Common decency demands that we eliminate the minimum wage entirely. What does decency have to do with it? Isn’t that a moral judgement? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-lowered-to-6-per-hour/651463.md?page=3)