# Should the minimum wage be raised to it's original value? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363 "2006-01-10T19:58:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/21 "2006-01-10T21:47:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I expect if we eliminated the MW there would be an increase in **poverty.** Regardless of the unemployment rate. I doubt it. Besides, even if that were true, there are other ways to fight poverty than the MW. Still, you didn’t answer my question. Are you afraid of the answer? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/22 "2006-01-10T21:52:23Z")
I don’t believe there would be at first, but as more and more businesses start to shave off wages, it will increase the disparity between rich and poor to the point that is not good for a consumer economy. And even worse, it would almost certainly, lead to a nation-wide price and wage depression. Which wouldn’t necessarily be bad since that doesn’t tell us much about what their relative worth. But it’d wreak havoc on our Debt to GDP ratio. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/23 "2006-01-10T21:53:07Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Besides, even if that were true, there are other ways to fight poverty than the MW. Such as? What would you propose? > [@John Mace](#): > > Still, you didn’t answer my question. Are you afraid of the answer? No, I’m afraid of the outcome. If the MW is abolished, more jobs will be offered on the market – at wages at which no worker can support him/herself, let alone a family; and higher-paying menial jobs would disappear, because anyone who continued to offer them would be driven out of business by less-generous competitors. That’s all in the relatively short term. In the long term, all those less-generous employers might find their business dropping off because fewer people can afford, any more, to buy their goods and services; and then even those lower-paying jobs might start to disappear. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/24 "2006-01-10T21:53:16Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I don’t like the idea that legislative fiat determines the value of an hour’s labor. In my view, labor is worth exactly what the market will bear. If no one will pay you $6.15 per hour to cook french fries, then your labor in cooking french fries isn’t worth $6.15 per hour, and forcing an employer to pay that wage is foolish. I suspect that one’s feelings about that will be directly related to how much one makes per hour, with people closest to the minimum wage advocating a rise, and people farthest from it, the least interested in raising it. Congress, interestingly enough, is peopled almost entirely by millionaires. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/25 "2006-01-10T21:54:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Such as? What would you propose? Welfare. > [@](#): > > No, I’m afraid of the outcome. If the MW is abolished, more jobs will be offered on the market – at wages at which no worker can support him/herself, let alone a family; and higher-paying menial jobs would disappear, because anyone who continued to offer them would be driven out of business by less-generous competitors. That’s all in the relatively short term. In the long term, all those less-generous employers might find their business dropping off because fewer people can afford, any more, to buy their goods and services; and then even those lower-paying jobs might start to disappear. Why should every job in the economy be one that allows the worker to support himself? What if one spouse just wants to earn extra money? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/26 "2006-01-10T22:03:36Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, I’m afraid of the outcome. If the MW is abolished, more jobs will be offered on the market – at wages at which no worker can support him/herself, let alone a family; and higher-paying menial jobs would disappear, because anyone who continued to offer them would be driven out of business by less-generous competitors. That’s all in the relatively short term. In the long term, all those less-generous employers might find their business dropping off because fewer people can afford, any more, to buy their goods and services; and then even those lower-paying jobs might start to disappear. Let me address this more fully. You are making the (erroneous) assumption that the MW is the only way to put money in the hands of the poor. Actually, it only takes care of the working poor, and it generates no wealth-- it just redistributes it. But, if we create more jobs, that does create more wealth. But frankly, this race to the bottom argument is easily debunked. If it were true, then all unskilled jobs would be at the minimum wage now. That’s demonstrably false. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/27 "2006-01-10T22:17:08Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Is it your contention that if we eliminated the MW, there would not be an increase in employment? Eliminating the MW will create jobs only if there are jobs that are not being offered because of wage floors. Are there really un-realized jobs in the economy? I’m not sold on that idea, but if there’s some evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it. Otherwise, the only effect will be to make the wages for current jobs lower. **BrainGlutton’s** cite that raising the minimum wage does not reduce the number of jobs certainly seems to indicate that there aren’t un-realized jobs. Rather, there are jobs that are currently being done for wages _less_ than the market will bear (as the jobs continue to exist even at higher wages). > [@John Mace](#): > > You are making the (erroneous) assumption that the MW is the only way to put money in the hands of the poor. Actually, it only takes care of the working poor, and it generates no wealth-- it just redistributes it. But, if we create more jobs, that does create more wealth. Sure - but your proposed welfare plan for combating the resultant poverty replaces the MW as the wealth redistribution mechanism. ---
**Author:** ![lonesome\_loser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@lonesome\_loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lonesome_loser)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/28 "2006-01-10T22:21:27Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Welfare. snip…QUOTE] They aren’t only not raising the MW, they are cutting welfare. Any other bright ideas? ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/29 "2006-01-10T22:31:25Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > I’ve always wondered- what about jobs that aren’t ‘worth’ paying a minimum wage, but still demand a full time commitment (40+ hours/week) to do? Do those jobs go undone, or are do we accept that we just need to increase our commitment to public assistance? That’s what illegal immigrants are for. And the nice thing is, they can’t complain about low salaries or poor working conditions, because you can then threaten to turn them over to Immigration Services. Whenever George W. Bush talks about [“jobs Americans won’t do,”](http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/markoped010704.html) he’s leaving out the caveat “…for slave wages.” ---
**Author:** ![cbarnes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@cbarnes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cbarnes)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/30 "2006-01-10T22:35:20Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Why ? The Republicans are the party of the “haves”. Cite? I’ll be the first person to say that I’m not a Republican, but statements like that border upon ludicrosity. The idea of generalizing the socio-economic status of an entire political party is riddiculous. I, for one, know many low(er) income Republicans. In fact, in my experience the majority of Republicans were not particularly priviledged. I could have let a statment like that go if you had said “In my experience…” but you went and passed it off as if it were the result of endless research. As long as nonsense like this keeps being sent back and forth there will never be any real political progress. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/31 "2006-01-10T22:47:59Z")
The thing about the minimum wage I don’t get is what is it supposed to accomplish? The OP mentions something about narrowing the gap between the haves and the have nots, but if that were the policy aim a MW is a very bad tool to do it. Why? It does not target the haves and it does not target the have nots. It is applied to all people, single mothers as well as teenagers simply trying to get some spending money. And on the business side, many small businesses operate on the slimmest of margins. What about the social goal that folks should be able to earn a living wage? Unfortunately the flip side of that coin is that someone is required to provide a living wage. But why should businees owners be required to foot the bill for asocietal need? Because they can afoford it? After all, income taxation principles are generally progressive on an ability-to-pay basis (I realize this point may not be true in practice, but it is a guiding principle, I believe). The thing about MW is that it is not based on an ability-to-pay, all business owners are required to pay, whether they are struggling to keep the doors open or hghly prosperous. Meanwhile, the worker may have no need to earn a living wage. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/32 "2006-01-10T23:08:28Z")
> [@MilTan](#): > > Eliminating the MW will create jobs only if there are jobs that are not being offered because of wage floors. Are there really un-realized jobs in the economy? I’m not sold on that idea, but if there’s some evidence to the contrary, I’d love to see it. Otherwise, the only effect will be to make the wages for current jobs lower. > > **BrainGlutton’s** cite that raising the minimum wage does not reduce the number of jobs certainly seems to indicate that there aren’t un-realized jobs. Rather, there are jobs that are currently being done for wages _less_ than the market will bear (as the jobs continue to exist even at higher wages). No, his cite does not do that. It claims to say that it didn’t prevent new jobs from being created, but even that claim is specious. We don’t know what would have happened if “X” hadn’t been done once “X” has been done. Ever notice how full-serve gas stations hardly exist anymore? Ever notice how automated tellers and check-out clerks are replacing people? No one who understands economics can deny that the existence of the minimum wage suppresses job creation. > [@](#): > > Sure - but your proposed welfare plan for combating the resultant poverty replaces the MW as the wealth redistribution mechanism. Yes, it does. But then we know exaclty how much we’re paying in welfare, and we do create more jobs. The economy as a whole is better off, and it’s also better able to support welfare. MW = welfare; it’s just invisible. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/33 "2006-01-10T23:25:06Z")
Call me skeptical, but I have a hard time believing that the Republican Party leadership has the interests of the common man in mind when they consider the Mariana Islands – complete with [70-hour work weeks, indentured servitude, underaged prostitution, and forced abortions](http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=1743) – to be “a perfect Petri dish of capitalism.” ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/34 "2006-01-10T23:31:53Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Ever notice how full-serve gas stations hardly exist anymore? Ever notice how automated tellers and check-out clerks are replacing people? No one who understands economics can deny that the existence of the minimum wage suppresses job creation. You may be right, but I don’t think your examples are particularly illuminating. I’m not sure about gas station attendants, but neither bank tellers nor supermarket checkout clerks are minimum wage jobs, and thus I don’t see how decreasing the minimum wage would bring those jobs back. ---
**Author:** ![MilTan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@MilTan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MilTan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/35 "2006-01-10T23:41:48Z")
Just wanted to add that even service station attendants are [paid more than minimum wage](http://www.iseek.org/sv/46001.jsp?id=536031). My impression is that most minimum wage jobs are ones that can’t be eliminated or easily automated (food service, janitorial, etc) and hence, unless there is a dearth of McDonald’s employees, lowering the minimum wage will serve more to lower the wages of existing jobs than increase the number of jobs. In general, if we create a small number of new jobs (and with an unemployment rate of 5.5%, there isn’t the _labor supply_ to support that many more), but decrease the wages of existing jobs, it’s not clear that we have a win on our hands. Especially because the chances of expanding the welfare system are slim to none. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/36 "2006-01-11T00:36:42Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Call me skeptical, but I have a hard time believing that the Republican Party leadership has the interests of the common man in mind when they consider the Mariana Islands – complete with [70-hour work weeks, indentured servitude, underaged prostitution, and forced abortions](http://www.texasobserver.org/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=1743) – to be “a perfect Petri dish of capitalism.” If you want to debate the Republican Party leadership, then invite them in here. Otherewise, you’re just posting strawman arguements. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/37 "2006-01-11T01:11:04Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > My own personal view is what I’ve said in every MW thread we’ve had. Let the market decide the price for labor, so that the economy works most efficiently. If that creates social problems (read: Poverty) that can be addressed thru social programs like wealfare. I don’t like the idea of my taxes going to pay for welfare so that someone can get rich off of paying their employees peanuts. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/38 "2006-01-11T01:15:36Z")
The minimum wage should be abolished. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/39 "2006-01-11T01:38:03Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > The minimum wage should be abolished. Go on. [crickets chirp] Umm . . . You see, what you wrote there, it’s what we call a “position” or an “opinion.” Which is just fine if you’re posting to a poll in IMHO. But it is not the same thing as an **argument.** What we mostly use in GD. The latter being, you know, generally more complicated and challenging, and backed up with cites or facts or chains of reasoning or something like that . . . ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2006, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363/40 "2006-01-11T01:51:49Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I don’t like the idea of my taxes going to pay for welfare so that someone can get rich off of paying their employees peanuts. But you don’t mind paying more for your products so that someone can get rich off of paying their employees the MW. What’s the difference? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-minimum-wage-be-raised-to-its-original-value/339363.md?page=3)