# Should the names of Confederate figures be removed from public places of honor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544 "2016-03-29T17:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/21 "2016-03-30T00:05:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nathan Bedford Forrest I think has his name on more stuff than anyone, and that’s mainly due to the fact that he was the Founder of the KKK. It’s a way to spit in the face of Black people while saying you’re honoring the General. “My Momma says, sometimes people do funny things.” – Forrest Gump Actually, [Forrest was a member of the original Klan but there is some dispute over whether he was ever Grand Wizard – and, he distanced himself from it from 1869, and denied he had been a member at all](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Bedford_Forrest#Ku_Klux_Klan_Membership). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/22 "2016-03-30T00:07:06Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Lee was never a traitor, the local meme here notwithstanding. He resigned that commission first. He declared his new allegiance openly and honorably. But, all Cornfeds-in-arms were traitors to the United States, by strict constitutional definition. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/23 "2016-03-30T00:09:06Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Depends, really. Artistic exemption? Personally speaking, I would be entirely fine with those decisions. Given that it’s actually part of your legal system, that would be a bad plan. These all sound like excellent ideas. Don’t get me wrong, there’s no way they’d actually happen. But I’d find it embarrassing if my nation’s capital was named for a slave owner, especially since it’s so needless. Better get ready to [dethrone RE I.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hawkins_(naval_commander)#First_voyages_.281562.E2.80.931563.29) > [@](#): > > In 1564, Queen Elizabeth I partnered with Hawkins by leasing the huge old 700-ton ship Jesus of Lubeck, on which he set forth on a more extensive voyage, along with three small ships. Hawkins sailed with his second cousin, Francis Drake, to the west African coast, privateering along the way. By the time he left, he carried African slaves; 400 survived when he reached Borburata on the western Venezuelan coast to trade as slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/24 "2016-03-30T00:13:36Z")
> [@Drum\_God](#): > > In my opinion, Robert E. Lee is a terrible person to honor with the name of a school or other public space. Lee was a traitor. He took up arms against the very army that trained and commissioned him. He championed the states’ right to allow slavery … Maybe they should name the school after George Washington instead. Oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/25 "2016-03-30T00:14:03Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But I’d find it embarrassing if my nation’s capital was named for a slave owner, especially since it’s so needless. [shrug] That slaveowner was still the Father of His Country, Victor of the Revolution, First POTUS, and all of that. I’m inclined to cut him some slack. He grew up in a slaveholding social class, he had never been taught that slavery was wrong (abolitionism was just getting started and widely regarded as cranky), and he had an estate to run and a gentleman’s position to maintain in a society where there was practically no market for free domestic labor. And he at least set his slaves free in his will, which Jefferson did not. See [Fair for Its Day](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairForItsDay) and [Presentism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_%28literary_and_historical_analysis%29). I presume that all sorts of places in Europe are named for lords who held serfs and saints who enabled the worst excesses of the RCC – should all those place-names be changed too? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/26 "2016-03-30T00:14:13Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Better get ready to [dethrone RE I.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hawkins_(naval_commander)#First_voyages_.281562.E2.80.931563.29) Hold up. Are you saying… that in the past… _English_ people did horrible things, too? Cancel my entire argument. I won’t stand to have even jot of my precious English Royals be taken down, God save the Queen, did those feet in ancient times, etc. etc. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/27 "2016-03-30T00:16:58Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Hold up. Are you saying… that in the past… _English_ people did horrible things, too? > > Cancel my entire argument. I won’t stand to have even jot of my precious English Royals be taken down, God save the Queen, did those feet in ancient times, etc. etc. No, I’m asking if you are ready to dethrone Queen Elizabeth I? To remove any memorials to her and take her name off anything that is named after her. To rename the current queen? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/28 "2016-03-30T00:18:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [shrug] That slaveowner was still the Father of His Country, Victor of the Revolution, First POTUS, and all of that. I’m inclined to cut him some slack. He grew up in a slaveholding social class, he had never been taught that slavery was wrong (abolitionism was just getting started and widely regarded as cranky), and he had an estate to run and a gentleman’s position to maintain in a society where there was practically no market for free domestic labor. And he at least set his slaves free in his will, which Jefferson did not. See [Fair for Its Day](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FairForItsDay) and [Presentism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_%28literary_and_historical_analysis%29). Here’s what I don’t get; all those fine things are fine things. Why not celebrate the fine things and not celebrate, even accidentally, even partially, the bad things? Washington is the Father of the Country? Great, celebrate what makes your nation good. Victor of the Revolution? Fantastic, celebrate a great martial triumph. First POTUS? Celebrate those fine things he did in office. Why muddy the waters by triumphalising the man when there’s no need for it? > [@](#): > > I presume that all sorts of places in Europe are named for lords who held serfs and saints who enabled the worst excesses of the RCC – should all those place-names be changed too? Yep. I guess the automatic strike against me is that I’m a hypocrite. That’s depressing for me. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/29 "2016-03-30T00:20:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No, I’m asking if you are ready to dethrone Queen Elizabeth I? To remove any memorials to her and take her name off anything that is named after her. To rename the current queen? Sounds fine to me, yes. Sorry, my post was a little too sarcastic to be obvious. To be clear; plenty of people in my country’s history are shits who I see no reason to revere. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/30 "2016-03-30T00:22:28Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Sounds fine to me, yes. OK, at least you are consistent. Personally, I don’t see the value in holding historical figures to modern ethical norms. They literally did not know any better. I don’t know exactly when I’d draw the cut-off date, but it would start somewhere around 1859 (publishing of _The Origin of Species_) and end somewhere around WWI. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/31 "2016-03-30T00:23:59Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Here’s what I don’t get; all those fine things are fine things. Why not celebrate the fine things and not celebrate, even accidentally, even partially, the bad things? Well, we can’t very well name a city “Washington, a Name Chosen to Honor George Washington’s Achievements but Not His Slaveholding.” It would look silly on the “Welcome To” signs and anywhere else. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/32 "2016-03-30T00:25:50Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Hold up. Are you saying… that in the past… _English_ people did horrible things, too? Well, those, of course, were No True Englishmen. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/33 "2016-03-30T00:26:13Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, we can’t very well name a city “Washington, a Name Chosen to Honor George Washington’s Achievements but Not His Slaveholding.” It would look silly on the “Welcome To” signs and anywhere else. Agreed. We acknowledge, but do not celebrate, GW’s owning of slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/34 "2016-03-30T00:28:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > OK, at least you are consistent. > > Personally, I don’t see the value in holding historical figures to modern ethical norms. They literally did not know any better. I don’t know exactly when I’d draw the cut-off date, but it would start somewhere around 1859 (publishing of _The Origin of Species_) and end somewhere around WWI. I’m not holding them to modern ethical norms. I’m holding us. We shouldn’t celebrate people who owned slaves. Even if they were very smart, visionary, heroic slave owners. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/35 "2016-03-30T00:30:04Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Well, we can’t very well name a city “Washington, a Name Chosen to Honor George Washington’s Achievements but Not His Slaveholding.” It would look silly on the “Welcome To” signs and anywhere else. True. Freedom, DC. Constitution, DC. Victory, DC. Revolution, DC. Independence, DC. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/36 "2016-03-30T00:34:58Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m not holding them to modern ethical norms. I’m holding us. We shouldn’t celebrate people who owned slaves. Even if they were very smart, visionary, heroic slave owners. Sorry, not seeing the difference. You are judging them by our standards. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/37 "2016-03-30T00:41:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sorry, not seeing the difference. You are judging them by our standards. Nope, sorry. If Washington, or indeed anyone around at that time, thinks that their nation’s capital should be named after that guy, that’s an understandable judgment. By the standards of the day, having a capital named after a slave owner would have, I’m sure, barely made most people blink an eye, at least of non-slaves. The standards of today I’m using to judge the existence of statues or parks or capitals named for slave owners. By the standards of today, those are bad things. The statues and that. The celebration of slave owners. They’re also unnecessary things! Name them after the good shit they did. That way you don’t have statues or parks or capitals named for slave owners. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/38 "2016-03-30T01:04:22Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Nope, sorry. If Washington, or indeed anyone around at that time, thinks that their nation’s capital should be named after that guy, that’s an understandable judgment. By the standards of the day, having a capital named after a slave owner would have, I’m sure, barely made most people blink an eye, at least of non-slaves. > > The standards of today I’m using to judge the existence of statues or parks or capitals named for slave owners. By the standards of today, those are bad things. The statues and that. The celebration of slave owners. > > They’re also unnecessary things! Name them after the good shit they did. That way you don’t have statues or parks or capitals named for slave owners. But we’re not naming our nation today. It already has a name. By removing that name, you are judging the person by the standards of today. You might argue that we should no longer name things after Washington, but why do we need to change the name of those things already named for him. This seem like an endless process of whitewashing history. No pun intended. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/39 "2016-03-30T01:28:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But we’re not naming our nation today. It already has a name. By removing that name, you are judging the person by the standards of today. Nope. Judging us by the standards of today. It is a bad thing, today, for people to happily have a capital or a park or whatever named for a slave owner. > [@](#): > > You might argue that we should no longer name things after Washington, but why do we need to change the name of those things already named for him. This seem like an endless process of whitewashing history. No pun intended. In what sense am I doing any whitewashing? What cracks am I seeking to paper over? What am I covering up? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/40 "2016-03-30T01:45:37Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > True. > > Freedom, DC. > Constitution, DC. > Victory, DC. > Revolution, DC. > Independence, DC. I’ve always wished the capital of the United States were named “New York City,” but that’s another debate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544.md?page=3)