# Should the names of Confederate figures be removed from public places of honor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544 "2016-03-29T17:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/61 "2016-03-30T14:38:00Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > Will you rename Washington and the District of Columbia separately, or will one new name suffice? Also, will the other countries of the Americas be consulted, or will we in the US just take responsibility for renaming the continent? I will take personal responsibility. The New World is henceforth North and South Bob. Antarctica is Little Bob. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/62 "2016-03-30T14:47:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Let us not be guilty of the crime of Presentism, where we judge the heroes of the past by the standards of today. > > Be very sure that 200 years from now, our descendants will claim we were all rat bastards for eating meat, making slaves of the noble Dolphin and our hideous experiments on our brothers the Chimps. I get your point in the last sentence of your post not quoted, but look, this part is fine too. If a hundred years from now a significant portion of Americans want to change the name of Tyson Square or Johnsonville Stadium that is fine. Commemorating things is how you live in the past. You are not scrubbing history by choosing to no longer honor aspects of it. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/63 "2016-03-30T14:51:11Z")
To scrub slave owners from the list of people things are named after would require essentially renaming every country, state, county, shire, region, street, monument and corner store in any country older than about 200 years. And many younger countries, too. Hell, we have a lot of living people who are named directly or indirectly after slave owners. You’re basically suggesting we rename everything. And to do it again in a few decades when eating meat is universally scorned or hunters are demonized or whatever. I get it, slavery is bad. But that doesn’t mean we have to pretend they didn’t exist. And maybe naming something after a slave owner “celebrates” them, but keeping the name out of inertia 150 years after the fact does no such thing. Yes, let’s stop naming things after slave owners. But the things that are already named after them (which is almost everything), have their own histories now, and can stand on their own. Just like renaming England because the Angles of 1500 years ago were a bunch of vicious bastards would be absurd. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/64 "2016-03-30T15:03:56Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Interesting though, that we don’t seem willing to extend that respect to people who don’t see the defenders of slavery as fitting honorees for public properties. Somehow, we let the losers decide that their war for slavery was honorable and let them rewrite history, but now we can’t question that revisionism for some reason. I guess that would be interesting if any of it were true. No one is saying that you can’t question anything. But we live in a democracy, and ultimately the decision is up to the majority. If you can persuade a majority of Americans to rename Wash DC, more power to you! ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/65 "2016-03-30T15:16:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I guess that would be interesting if any of it were true. No one is saying that you can’t question anything. But we live in a democracy, and ultimately the decision is up to the majority. If you can persuade a majority of Americans to rename Wash DC, more power to you! So you support the renaming of the school in the OP? The school board has voted to change the name. What’s there to debate? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/66 "2016-03-30T15:22:09Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > So you support the renaming of the school in the OP? I’m cool with whatever they decide. It’s their school, not mine. > [@](#): > > The school board has voted to change the name. What’s there to debate? From the thread title: “Should the names of Confederate figures be removed from public places of honor?” But you might note that the debate has expanded from there to include other figures from the past who did things that, today, would be considered morally repugnant. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/67 "2016-03-30T15:41:56Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > If you’re under the impression that I thought you had named your capitol after Washington because of how gosh-darned great a slave owner he was, you are wrong. I’m kind of curious what I’ve said that led you to think that. It’s fairly stupid. No, I didn’t think that about you at all! Not until I read this part: > [@](#): > > No, I’m agreeing with that larger point, and then taking it further; namely, “Don’t honour people specifically for the bad things they did, and, if possible, don’t honour them at all if they did bad things if you can honour the good _things_ they did individually”. That’s the helpful thing; we aren’t limited to lionising a person and ignoring those details of their life we’d prefer not to lionise. We can just celebrate the great things they did. Celebrate Washington’s fine and noble deeds, and then you don’t have to include his slave ownership at all! Nothing of value is lost; to the contrary, we’re cutting away the fat. And now I’m confused, because you seem, here, to be taking exactly the position you just dismissed as “fairly stupid.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/68 "2016-03-30T16:34:26Z")
Can we all at least agree that Confederate pride should be erased from any and all public sanction or expression, and should have been so erased a very long time ago? ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/69 "2016-03-30T18:01:04Z")
See, this is the problem I see people getting into. Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. They were not saints, but they were products of their time. Even Lincoln was hardly a civil rights activist in the modern sense. He freed the slaves, but he would never have considered a black person his peer. No one could be honored if we expect absolute modern purity from them. I like how a person earlier said, “they didn’t know any better”. In many cases, that is literally true. Judging historical figures by modern standards is a fool’s errand. Today, we are also products of our times. Where we can draw a distinction, however, is in what the honoree is being remembered _for_. George Washington is honored with his name and likeness on so many things _in spite_ of his owning slaves. His deeds as a founder of the nation, first President, and military exploits are among the things that lead us to hold him in high esteem. His owning slaves is acknowledged, but it is not what we celebrate. Robert E. Lee, on the other hand, is honored for precisely the reasons he should be reviled. He betrayed his country (the fact that he was “honorable” about it is immaterial). He fought for the institution of slavery, regardless of his personal feelings on the matter. If anything, his personal feelings, in my view, make his deeds worse. He knew slavery was wrong, but he defended it none-the-less. So, if we put Washington’s name on an elementary school, we are saying “Here is the Father of our County, a statesman, a leader (who also happened to own slaves).” If we put Lee’s name on an elementary school, we are saying “Here is a traitor to his country who defended the institution of slavery (even though he personally despised it).” ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/70 "2016-03-30T18:07:44Z")
Well, if you want to draw a line, how about at people who committed treason, regardless of their ownership of slaves? That should distinguish him, and for that matter a whole lot of other revered Southern figures, from run of the mill assholes. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/71 "2016-03-30T18:14:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Can we all at least agree that Confederate pride should be erased from any and all public sanction or expression, and should have been so erased a very long time ago? Sure. As long as you can tell us the difference between Confederate Pride and Souther Pride. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/72 "2016-03-30T18:16:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sure. As long as you can tell us the difference between Confederate Pride and Souther Pride. Treason ---
**Author:** ![drewder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/57b2e6/32.png) [@drewder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewder)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/73 "2016-03-30T18:31:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve always wished the capital of the United States were named “New York City,” but that’s another debate. New Yorkers already think the world revolves around them. Lets not do anything more to encourage it. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/74 "2016-03-30T18:40:52Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Well, if you want to draw a line, how about at people who committed treason, regardless of their ownership of slaves? That should distinguish him, and for that matter a whole lot of other revered Southern figures, from run of the mill assholes. The American Revolution was treason. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/75 "2016-03-30T18:45:05Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Treason OK, I’ll agree that we should never name anything after someone convicted of treason (unless they were on the side that won). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/76 "2016-03-30T18:51:41Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The American Revolution was treason. Nope, we won. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/77 "2016-03-30T18:59:26Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, we won. It was treason and only stopped being treason when the British capitulated. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/78 "2016-03-30T19:21:48Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sure. As long as you can tell us the difference between Confederate Pride and Souther Pride. If Southern Pride is based on a treasonous war to protect slavery, maybe they shouldn’t be proud of it? How about William Faulkner, Harper Lee and Robert Johnson as better sources for southern pride? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/79 "2016-03-30T19:55:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Sure. As long as you can tell us the difference between Confederate Pride and Souther Pride. Easy. Non-Cornfed Southern pride does not involve the Civil War, and certainly does not regret its outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/80 "2016-03-30T20:08:38Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, I didn’t think that about you at all! > > Not until I read this part: > > And now I’m confused, because you seem, here, to be taking exactly the position you just dismissed as “fairly stupid.” I’m not sure what’s not clear. You shouldn’t celebrate people for bad stuff they did - a position that’s fairly obvious and would be foolish to disagree with (or, hey, evil). But my addition was that you also shouldn’t celebrate a person, in their totality, and thereby celebrate if only in part the bad things that they did. Celebrating “Washington” in the general does that, where celebrating a fine deed of his doesn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544.md?page=5)