# Should the names of Confederate figures be removed from public places of honor? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544 "2016-03-29T17:51:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/101 "2016-03-31T04:24:35Z")
OK, the Washington Monument should now be demolished and replaced with the Martha Washington Monument (a hole 555 feet deep on the same site). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/102 "2016-03-31T04:41:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve always wished the capital of the United States were named “New York City,” but that’s another debate. No one else was in the room where THAT happened… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/103 "2016-03-31T06:02:20Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Maybe they should name the school after George Washington instead. > > Oh, wait. Let’s not expect intellectual honesty of logical consistency. It doesn’t suit the political narrative in this case. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/104 "2016-03-31T06:11:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, we won. Wrong. It was a successful, treasonous act. It just so happens that success trumps treason. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/105 "2016-03-31T06:29:29Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m not sure what’s not clear. You shouldn’t celebrate people for bad stuff they did - a position that’s fairly obvious and would be foolish to disagree with (or, hey, evil). But my addition was that you also shouldn’t celebrate a person, in their totality, and thereby celebrate if only in part the bad things that they did. Celebrating “Washington” in the general does that, where celebrating a fine deed of his doesn’t. So, you’d be okay with “Acceptance of the Surrender of Cornwallis After the Battle of Yorktown, D.C.”? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/106 "2016-03-31T10:47:04Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why stop with those with ties to slaveholding? How about other bad things? Kennedy was a philanderer and an adulterer; his father was a bootlegger, a man, likely, with plenty of blood on his hands, should we remove “Kennedy” from all buildings, schools, parks, etc.? I’ve actually already answered this question. I’m not certain where precisely the line should be drawn, but yes, in theory. > [@](#): > > As someone pointed out earlier, you are indeed judging people with the morality of another time. It’s hard enough for people to be great in their own time, but for them to be great when measured against some future morality, that seems ridiculous. I think it’s safe to say that with everyone we celebrate from history, we don’t think, “Well, he really was an amazing A, and of course he was a pure and noble saw in every other aspect of his life and thinking, too.” No, I’m not. I am judging _us_ with the morality of our time. It is wrong, _today_, for you or me or anyone to celebrate a slave owner. It isn’t a grand expectation that people, today, should celebrate slave owners (though it seems it does happen). I agree that most people don’t think that historical figures are pure as the driven snow. That’s the problem. We know what they’ve done, to a greater or lesser extent, and yet we celebrate them when the option to simply celebrate the good things they did and said is sitting there, seemingly unused. > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > So, you’d be okay with “Acceptance of the Surrender of Cornwallis After the Battle of Yorktown, D.C.”? I actually quite like lengthy, Culture-esque names. But it’s not really workable. I’d be fine with some of the things I suggested earlier, though - Victory, DC, Revolution, DC, or Independence, DC seem applicable in this case. You could even go with just “Yorktown, DC”. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/107 "2016-03-31T12:40:10Z")
But D.C. is named after Columbus, a far worse person than Washington by any measure. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/108 "2016-03-31T13:00:23Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I agree that most people don’t think that historical figures are pure as the driven snow. That’s the problem. We know what they’ve done, to a greater or lesser extent, and yet we celebrate them when the option to simply celebrate the good things they did and said is sitting there, seemingly unused. We celebrate them when we could simply celebrate the good things they did?? Outrageous!! ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/109 "2016-03-31T15:16:16Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’ve actually already answered this question. I’m not certain where precisely the line should be drawn, but yes, in theory. No, I’m not. I am judging _us_ with the morality of our time. It is wrong, _today_, for you or me or anyone to celebrate a slave owner. It isn’t a grand expectation that people, today, should celebrate slave owners (though it seems it does happen). > > I agree that most people don’t think that historical figures are pure as the driven snow. That’s the problem. We know what they’ve done, to a greater or lesser extent, and yet we celebrate them when the option to simply celebrate the good things they did and said is sitting there, seemingly unused. > I actually quite like lengthy, Culture-esque names. But it’s not really workable. I’d be fine with some of the things I suggested earlier, though - Victory, DC, Revolution, DC, or Independence, DC seem applicable in this case. You could even go with just “Yorktown, DC”. It’s not wrong at all. Your point of view is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/110 "2016-03-31T16:10:06Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not wrong at all. Your point of view is dangerous. It might be a little bit silly, but how dangerous? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/111 "2016-03-31T16:21:43Z")
It’s all balance and grey areas – everyone draws the line somewhere, just at different places. Some folks would prefer not to honor Hitler and Stalin, but pretty much everyone else would be okay, and others draw the line at any slave-owners, or even farther. I draw the line somewhere around folks whose biggest accomplishments and reasons-for-celebration/honor were connected to white supremacy, other forms of extreme bigotry, and other man-made horrors like genocide and the like. So, by my measure, we should avoid honoring or celebrating anyone whose greatest fame is fighting for or playing a prominent role in support of the Confederacy, Jim Crow, segregation, or the like; but honoring or celebrating someone like Washington or Jefferson who is not primarily honored for white supremacy, but rather for other accomplishments, is acceptable to me, even if they did own slaves or have white supremacist beliefs. I don’t know how hard and fast this rule is for me, but this is where I start, when considering whether something or someone should still be honored publicly. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/112 "2016-03-31T17:19:26Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Wrong. It was a successful, treasonous act. It just so happens that success trumps treason. Franklin: \*Treason is a charge invented by winners as an excuse for hanging the losers. \* ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/113 "2016-03-31T18:57:24Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > We celebrate them when we could simply celebrate the good things they did?? Outrageous!! You laugh, but here’s the thing; right now, people are celebrating slave ownership when they don’t have to at all. I actually do feel that’s outrageous. Others are free, of course, to not be too bothered about the minutiae of people owning other people. [QUOTE=octopus] It’s not wrong at all. Your point of view is dangerous. [/QUOTE] I’m interested in this one too. I’m even more interested in why you would say my opinion was dangerous and not explain why automatically. I mean, if I thought you were doing something dangerous, I would quickly attempt to stop you and explain the danger. Simply saying “Your point of view is dangerous” is kind of like looking at someone with a lit firework held in their hand and saying “Huh, That’s not a good idea.” And leaving it at that. Please do tell me if I’m in danger of losing a hand. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/114 "2016-03-31T19:48:41Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > You laugh, but here’s the thing; right now, people are celebrating slave ownership when they don’t have to at all. They are not. I’ve seen a great many memorials to Confederate figures, and Confederate soldiery in general. None that I have seen celebrate slave ownership. (A few specifically condemn it.) What they celebrate, or honor, is defense of the South. Hundreds of thousands of Southern men–most of those who served–took up that cause at a time when ending slavery was not a Northern war aim. Can you understand how many Americans can regret, even condemn, the decisions of politicians to take our country to war in Vietnam, or Iraq–and yet at the same time honor our troops who served there? If so, how could you imagine that Southern Americans could reject their neighbors and kinfolk who resisted an invader in their own lands? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/115 "2016-03-31T19:53:17Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > They are not. I’ve seen a great many memorials to Confederate figures, and Confederate soldiery in general. None that I have seen celebrate slave ownership. (A few specifically condemn it.) What they celebrate, or honor, is defense of the South. Hundreds of thousands of Southern men–most of those who served–took up that cause at a time when ending slavery was not a Northern war aim. > > Can you understand how many Americans can regret, even condemn, the decisions of politicians to take our country to war in Vietnam, or Iraq–and yet at the same time honor our troops who served there? If so, how could you imagine that Southern Americans could reject their neighbors and kinfolk who resisted an invader in their own lands? I can understand their thinking, just as I can understand the thinking of the average Wehrmacht soldier who believed he was fighting for his homeland – but they were still fighting to support and defend slavery and white supremacy (and genocide, in the case of the Wehrmacht soldier). In my opinion, the cause of the Confederacy should be as reviled in the United States as the cause of the Nazis is in Germany. I wish most moderns Americans rejected and reviled the Confederacy as much as most modern Germans reject and revile the Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/116 "2016-03-31T19:58:00Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > They are not. I’ve seen a great many memorials to Confederate figures, and Confederate soldiery in general. None that I have seen celebrate slave ownership. (A few specifically condemn it.) What they celebrate, or honor, is defense of the South. Hundreds of thousands of Southern men–most of those who served–took up that cause at a time when ending slavery was not a Northern war aim. I’m afraid they are, excepting those that specifically condemn it, so long as they celebrate or honor something so general as “defense of the South”. Because a part of that defense was a defense of slavery, and what’s being celebrated is the general. You can’t cite the hundreds of thousands of Southern men who served when slavery ending wasn’t an option when what’s being celebrated is everyone, including those who fought when it was, and including those who fought specifically, partially or otherwise, to keep it as an institution. It really boggles me, I have to admit. Why not just celebrate the good parts? You’ve already separated out who you consider noble (or at least, not horrendous). > [@](#): > > Can you understand how many Americans can regret, even condemn, the decisions of politicians to take our country to war in Vietnam, or Iraq–and yet at the same time honor our troops who served there? Yes, I can understand it, because it’s a \*perfect \*example of what I’m in favour of. Separate out the bad - the decisions of politicians to go to war in Vietnam or Iraq - and honour only the good, those who served there honourably. What I would be against would be people holding parades every year in celebration of “the war in Vietnam”; because that would include both bad and good. Likewise, a memorial to the Confederacy or to someone like Washington would be a poor idea in my eyes, but a memorial that separates out the bad from the good and honours the good alone would be perfectly fine. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/117 "2016-03-31T20:07:36Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Yes, I can understand it, because it’s a \*perfect \*example of what I’m in favour of. > > Separate out the bad - the decisions of politicians to go to war in Vietnam or Iraq - and honour only the good, those who served there honourably. That’s what they do. The war memorial in front of the courthouse in my town honors Continentals, Confederates, and USF-I on equal terms. In no case is the political cause mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/118 "2016-03-31T20:15:17Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > That’s what they do. The war memorial in front of the courthouse in my town honors Continentals, Confederates, and USF-I on equal terms. In no case is the political cause mentioned. That’s not what they do at all. You’re taking the examples of differentiating over Vietnam - decision-making politicians, and members of armed forces serving - and applying that directly in those groups to that memorial. I don’t care that one group is the politicians and one group is the soldiers; I care that one group that did bad stuff isn’t honoured by people today, and one group that didn’t do bad stuff\* is _honoured_. That one is politicians and the other soldiers makes no difference to me on this subject at all. It’s what they did, and said. The Civil War memorials separate out serving armed forces members, but that’s not the characteristic I’m giving out passes to honor based on. It’s whether they did bad shit we shouldn’t honour. And some of those Confederate soldiers were fighting to keep slavery. Honouring ALL of them honours that fight in defense of slavery. \*Simplistic, which I why I added “honourably” to my prior post. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/119 "2016-03-31T20:44:46Z")
My personal view is that no public spaces or public money should ever be honoring a member of a traitorous, violent faction that tried to destroy the US to support slavery ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544/120 "2016-03-31T21:12:52Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > This is a great point. What does it say about modern America that we choose to honor Robert E. Lee? > [@John\_Mace](#): > > It says that even though we fought a brutal civil war, when the war was over the winners chose, to a certain extent, to reconcile rather than smear the loser’s faces in the mud. For people to live together harmoniously, a certain amount of respect is needed, even it is sometimes less than gratifying for one side. Well, not really. It says that the losers chose to cling to their defeated heroes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-names-of-confederate-figures-be-removed-from-public-places-of-honor/750544.md?page=7)