# Should the navy nurse who refused to force feed Guantanamo prisoners be discharged? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447 "2014-11-23T23:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/41 "2014-11-24T10:52:40Z")
Would it be better to let the prisoner die of hunger? Doesn’t sound ethical either. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/42 "2014-11-24T12:19:50Z")
I agree with **Velocity**. I’ve never seen how, of the choice, “Letting your patient die”, or “Forcibly feeding your patient to keep him alive”, the first is the moral thing to do. It seems to me that doctors and nurses take oaths to preserve lives, not let people throw theirs away. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/43 "2014-11-24T12:26:16Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes and yes. When one swears an oath to obey the lawful orders of their superiors, they forfeit the right to object on moral grounds. If it is possible that taking such an oath would obligate you to do things you find morally reprehensible, then you should not take that oath. An explicit order to torture would be unlawful, and _must_ be disobeyed. As would an order to machine gun civilians, execute prisoners, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/44 "2014-11-24T12:35:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes and yes. When one swears an oath to obey the lawful orders of their superiors, they forfeit the right to object on moral grounds. If it is possible that taking such an oath would obligate you to do things you find morally reprehensible, then you should not take that oath. The concept of an “oath” and a “superior” are arbitrary constructs. They work fine until such time as they don’t. Moreover, many people taking such an oath are not in a position, due to youth, lack of exposure or experience etc. to even be able to consider what taking such an oath actually means. People should base their decisions on their own standards of ethical behaviour. If the nurse in this case has a moral objection then of course they should disobey the order and I’d applaud them for taking such a stand. Would you applaud a Nazi soldier that refused a direct order to herd people into the chambers due to his moral objections? Consider where your simplistic stance takes you. There is a direct line from blindly following orders to any number of military atrocities. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/45 "2014-11-24T12:40:23Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’ve never seen how, of the choice, “Letting your patient die”, or “Forcibly feeding your patient to keep him alive”, the first is the moral thing to do. If death is the only way somebody can escape their extralegal imprisonment by a government that has had them tortured and still actively defends those torturers, why do you believe is it ethical to deny them that escape? These prisoners are not being force-fed for the sake of the patient, but to whitewash America’s crimes against them, to disguise the fact that they consider their continued imprisonment by their one-time torturers a fate worse than death. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/46 "2014-11-24T12:59:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes and yes. When one swears an oath to obey the lawful orders of their superiors, they forfeit the right to object on moral grounds. If it is possible that taking such an oath would obligate you to do things you find morally reprehensible, then you should not take that oath. As medical professionals, don’t nurses swear a similar oath as doctors dictating how they practice medicine? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/47 "2014-11-24T13:26:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Yes and yes. When one swears an oath to obey the lawful orders of their superiors, they forfeit the right to object on moral grounds. If it is possible that taking such an oath would obligate you to do things you find morally reprehensible, then you should not take that oath. Again I ask, what about ordering Chaplains not to give Last Rites to prisoners that will not cooperate fully with Military Intelligence, or ordering them to show favoritism to those that do? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/48 "2014-11-24T13:52:16Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > No, it doesn’t. Or, if it does, what you are saying is that doctors and nurses cannot serve in the military without jeopardising their licences and exposing themselves to the legal consequences of malpractice. > > Do you really want a military that can’t recruit doctors and nurses? There’s probably a reason they don’t order doctors to participate in the force-feeding. The United States does not recognize force-feeding as torture, no part of our laws do and we aren’t signatory to any treaties that recognize it as torture, so there is nothing improper in the order. Any international treaties we’ve signed up for governing military behavior are incorporated in the UCMJ and orders to violate them are unlawful, but that’s not the case here. So yes, I don’t care what the consequences are **if** a member of the military is given a lawful order disobedience must be punished. This is the core of what is necessary for a military to exist. Now that being said, I think there is a reason nurses are given these orders and not doctors. Further, nurses that probably are not licensed as nurses in any case. The military doesn’t want to make serving unattractive to physicians and give them a lot of sweetheart perks as it is. I doubt you’d see a doctor given an order like this in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/49 "2014-11-24T13:54:06Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Who has the right to order a nurse to do something against her morals and against the patient’s wishes? Her choice is to tell the military to pound sand and go to the private sector. Yes, after being punished she will be in the private sector. It’s a criminal offense to disobey an order. It’s among the most serious in the military depending on the context (disobedience before the enemy is a capital crime.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/50 "2014-11-24T14:00:08Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > Putting aside the question of whether those orders really are lawful… You go from saying what the law is in one sentence to saying what _should_ happen in the next. I don’t think one necessarily follows from the other. The current state of the law can sometimes be morally in the wrong, don’t you think? If the act of force feeding is immoral, then _should_ people be punished for refusing to commit an immoral act when ordered to do so? > > You might not agree that there _is_ anything immoral about force feeding, but my point is that the morality of force feeding is relevant to the question. > > If the nurse had instead been ordered to do something that _you_ consider torture, and if the state of the law made that a legal order, then would your opinion by different? My personal judgment about what is torture has no place governing the behavior of the United States military. What if I’m part of a religious sect and consider forced insulin treatment (which nurse **WhyNot** says happens in prisons and is not against any professional guidelines, even though it seems identical in concept to forced feeding) torture? What if I’m part of a religious sect that I only joined after enlisting, a few days before being ordered to assault an enemy position, that believes touching a gun is immoral? We have a robust UCMJ, we have lots of international treaties governing our soldier’s behavior and those treaties are incorporated in the UCMJ. An order violating those treaties or the UCMJ generally is an unlawful order. A lawful order on the other hand, must be obeyed. It doesn’t matter if the person has a personal problem with the lawful order. You have to punish people for violating them. Context matters, refusal to deploy should merit some prison time but not an immense amount. Something like this I would just see them dishonorably discharged and removed from the service. Refusing an order in battle should be punished extremely harshly, it’s one of the few things where I’d be fine with it being punished by death but more realistically we’d see a very lengthy prison term. Commanders literally used to kill people on the spot for disobeying orders and it was totally lawful. Disobeying orders is a big deal in the military and you cannot get to the point this nurse did without knowing that. You give up freedoms of choice in the military and in place of that choice on many issues is military discipline. If you don’t like that, it’s an all-volunteer military, you should not have volunteered. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/51 "2014-11-24T14:02:35Z")
According to [this site,](http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/ill-army-nurse-547937.html) you do need to hold a state license(in any state) to be a military nurse. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/52 "2014-11-24T14:02:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The concept of an “oath” and a “superior” are arbitrary constructs. They work fine until such time as they don’t. Moreover, many people taking such an oath are not in a position, due to youth, lack of exposure or experience etc. to even be able to consider what taking such an oath actually means. > > People should base their decisions on their own standards of ethical behaviour. If the nurse in this case has a moral objection then of course they should disobey the order and I’d applaud them for taking such a stand. > > Would you applaud a Nazi soldier that refused a direct order to herd people into the chambers due to his moral objections? > > Consider where your simplistic stance takes you. There is a direct line from blindly following orders to any number of military atrocities. Yeah if we started letting people out of their military responsibilities on the argument that “they were too young and stupid when they signed up” we may as well close up shop tomorrow. The military isn’t a place for moral objections or “your own standards of ethical behavior.” You guys really don’t get that the military is a place where you lose a lot of your civilian rights, do you? We as a society have decided when personal ethics can overrule an order, we have not and should not give individual soldiers carte blanche to impose their own ethical system into it. Again, if you want to do that you need to not volunteer in the first place. Barring that you can do what this person did–and you will pay the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/53 "2014-11-24T14:03:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > According to [this site,](http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/ill-army-nurse-547937.html) you do need to hold a state license(in any state) to be a military nurse. Do we know what her actual MOS is? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/54 "2014-11-24T14:10:31Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Do we know what her actual MOS is? Not yet. What do you think she should do if she is ordered to do something that would cause her to lose her state license? The dilemma is that if she loses her state license, she no longer qualifies to be a military nurse. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/55 "2014-11-24T14:10:39Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Yeah if we started letting people out of their military responsibilities on the argument that “they were too young and stupid when they signed up” we may as well close up shop tomorrow. The military isn’t a place for moral objections or “your own standards of ethical behavior.” So you actually _approve_ of soldiers obeying orders to round people up into concentration camps or torture them? > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > You guys really don’t get that the military is a place where you lose a lot of your civilian rights, do you? Hardly, this has nothing to do with “rights” - this entire situation exists because of the government denying that rights exist. However, we _are_ aware of the principle that saying “I was just following orders” is no excuse for barbaric behavior; it’s an outright cliche at this point. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/56 "2014-11-24T14:18:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > So you actually _approve_ of soldiers obeying orders to round people up into concentration camps or torture them? > > Hardly, this has nothing to do with “rights” - this entire situation exists because of the government denying that rights exist. > > However, we _are_ aware of the principle that saying “I was just following orders” is no excuse for barbaric behavior; it’s an outright cliche at this point. Well, here’s the thing. Regardless of how unlawful the order might be, you don’t get to just decide to not obey without consequences. If this nurse feels her orders are illegal, she can disobey them and then face the consequences at a Court Martial. She might be exonerated or she might not be. But the ultimate decision of whether the order is legal or not isn’t hers to make. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/57 "2014-11-24T14:30:00Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, here’s the thing. Regardless of how unlawful the order might be, you don’t get to just decide to not obey without consequences. If this nurse feels her orders are illegal, she can disobey them and then face the consequences at a Court Martial. She might be exonerated or she might not be. But the ultimate decision of whether the order is legal or not isn’t hers to make. The law is beside the point; we’ve long since decided the law doesn’t matter in this entire affair. We created the entire “unlawful combatant” category and stuck our victims it Guantanamo specifically so we could put our victims and everyone involved with them in a legal limbo. It’s silly to pretend that _now_, _suddenly_ the law matters when it didn’t when we grabbed these people, it didn’t when we tortured them, and it still doesn’t when we continue to hold them there without charges. The law has no moral force, here; not after what we’ve already done and are still doing. She is under no _moral_ obligation to obey it at this point. What matters is doing the right thing morally, and the practical issue of if she can she get away with it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/58 "2014-11-24T14:41:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The law is beside the point; we’ve long since decided the law doesn’t matter in this entire affair. We created the entire “unlawful combatant” category and stuck our victims it Guantanamo specifically so we could put our victims and everyone involved with them in a legal limbo. It’s silly to pretend that _now_, _suddenly_ the law matters when it didn’t when we grabbed these people, it didn’t when we tortured them, and it still doesn’t when we continue to hold them there without charges. > > The law has no moral force, here; not after what we’ve already done and are still doing. She is under no _moral_ obligation to obey it at this point. What matters is doing the right thing morally, and the practical issue of if she can she get away with it. Cool story, bro. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/59 "2014-11-24T14:49:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Cool story, bro. What an incredibly meaningless non-reply. Why didn’t you just type “bloorg” or “glarp” instead? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/60 "2014-11-24T14:59:11Z")
HE! HE! Please, not all nurses are women! This one, in fact, is a man. Jeesh. > [@Odesio](#): > > As medical professionals, don’t nurses swear a similar oath as doctors dictating how they practice medicine? Neither the Hippocratic Oath nor the Florence Nightingale Pledge are legally binding. But yes, we often do, as part of our “pinning” ceremony around graduation. Here’s what it says: > [@](#): > > I solemnly pledge myself before God and in the presence of this assembly, to pass my life in purity and to practice my profession faithfully. I will abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous, and will not take or knowingly administer any harmful drug. I will do all in my power to maintain and elevate the standard of my profession, and will hold in confidence all personal matters committed to my keeping and all family affairs coming to my knowledge in the practice of my calling. With loyalty will I endeavor to aid the physician in his work, and devote myself to the welfare of those committed to my care. I didn’t say it when my classmates did, because it was about 100 years out of date to my mind. Not to mention logically indefensible with current medical practices. It has the same problem “do no harm” does, namely that modern medicine mandates that we do quite a bit of harm sometimes, in the hope that more healing comes from it. Chemo? Harm. Radiation? Harm. Surgery? Harm. And don’t get me started on “purity”. Sexist bullshit. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There’s probably a reason they don’t order doctors to participate in the force-feeding. The United States does not recognize force-feeding as torture, no part of our laws do and we aren’t signatory to any treaties that recognize it as torture, so there is nothing improper in the order. Any international treaties we’ve signed up for governing military behavior are incorporated in the UCMJ and orders to violate them are unlawful, but that’s not the case here. > > So yes, I don’t care what the consequences are **if** a member of the military is given a lawful order disobedience must be punished. This is the core of what is necessary for a military to exist. > > Now that being said, I think there is a reason nurses are given these orders and not doctors. Further, nurses that probably are not licensed as nurses in any case. The military doesn’t want to make serving unattractive to physicians and give them a lot of sweetheart perks as it is. I doubt you’d see a doctor given an order like this in the military. No, it probably has a lot more to do with the fact that doctors and nurses do different things, and you will rarely find a doctor trained in the administration of NG tubes and tube feedings. Many of them know how to do it in theory (because it’s not hard), but they don’t do it, because nurses do. It would be like going to your Tax Attorney to fill out your Schedule C. She probably knows how to do it, because she knows the theory, the legal ramifications and the general anatomy of a tax form. But it would be weird and inefficient and more likely to result in errors. A much better idea would be to ask a Tax Accountant to do it. Tax Attorneys and Tax Accountants may sometimes work together, and what they do may not be very distinguishable to a layperson, but they are separate fields working in tandem. Much more important to me than the AMA’s stance, although I realize with a heavy sigh that they have more weight with the general public…but [the American \*Nurses \*Association is standing behind this guy.](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/19/nursing-group-urges-military-not-to-punish-guantanamo-nurse-refused-force-feeding)\* Our state Nurse Practice Acts are largely silent on specific procedures, but they do instruct us to follow our professional education that we received in an approved nursing education program (mine said “you can’t force feed an unwilling competent patient”) and the guidance of the professional organizations of our field (one of which would be the ANA, which says this nurse is doing the right thing.) \*And even that article ends with a quote from a doctor, not a nurse. Ugh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447.md?page=4)