# Should the navy nurse who refused to force feed Guantanamo prisoners be discharged? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447 "2014-11-23T23:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/61 "2014-11-24T15:03:50Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What matters is doing the right thing morally, and the practical issue of if she can she get away with it. And you don’t see the possibility that allowing a person to harm himself might not be the right thing morally? I realize you probably don’t. I can’t ever think of a time when you’ve said you see both sides of an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/62 "2014-11-24T15:08:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And you don’t see the possibility that allowing a person to harm himself might not be the right thing morally? When they have an obvious rational reason to want to die? And when the people who want him alive are torturers? No. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/63 "2014-11-24T15:16:32Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And you don’t see the possibility that allowing a person to harm himself might not be the right thing morally? A person in his right mind? Nope, I don’t. To me, it’s all about \*informed \*refusal. And that’s surprisingly easy to determine just by talking to a person. If he thinks refusing food will win him freedom, that would not be informed refusal. If he thinks refusing food will not kill him, because his god will save his life by giving his body the ability to survive on nothing, that would not be informed refusal. (although religious claims are the hardest to evaluate. If he was a lifelong Breatharian, then I might have to allow for that.) If he thinks starving to death is an easy, painless death, that would not be informed refusal. If he thinks the people who want to force him to eat are aliens from the planet Zeebob trying to implant a tracking chip in his abdomen, that would not be informed refusal. If he wants to commit suicide, I’d have to call in a psych consult to see if he had a mental illness. People in extreme situations are not necessarily mentally ill because they would prefer to die. That’s beyond my pay grade and scope of practice to diagnose. ETA: But if he can tell me, “Yes, I understand that with no food, my body will waste, I will have pain and muscle spasms. I will have diarrhea and bloating as my body begins to digest its own organs. I will feel weak and horrible, and then I will die, probably in a few weeks. I know these things, and I accept them.” That’s about as informed as it gets, and yes, I will honor that. I will honor that just as I will honor it when you tell me you want to be put on a ventilator and feeding tube and kept alive by machines when you’re about to die, even though I think that’s a horrible idea. Because nursing isn’t about thrusting my decision making rubric on you, it’s about helping you to make your own decisions manifest. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/64 "2014-11-24T15:29:58Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Yeah if we started letting people out of their military responsibilities on the argument that “they were too young and stupid when they signed up” we may as well close up shop tomorrow. The military isn’t a place for moral objections or “your own standards of ethical behavior.” You guys really don’t get that the military is a place where you lose a lot of your civilian rights, do you? The military is what society as whole decides it is and if the society changes, the military needs to adapt accordingly. The military is under more stringent oversight than ever before and that is absolutely right and proper. We really, _really_ don’t want that to be the other way round. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/65 "2014-11-24T15:34:12Z")
Can military personnel refuse an order that can cause them to lose their job? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/66 "2014-11-24T16:24:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > When they have an obvious rational reason to want to die? And when the people who want him alive are torturers? No. Interesting division of the world. Those who want him to die and those who want him to live so they can torture him. Which category do you place yourself in? Personally, I would reject your premise and offer myself as an example of somebody outside of your categorization. I don’t want these people to die and I don’t want them to be tortured. And if the decision is based on a faulty premise like yours, then perhaps the decision wasn’t as rational as it appeared. People in extreme situations make poor decisions and killing yourself is an irreversible decision. You (like myself) are an atheist. Suppose you learned that some of the prisoners on hunger strikes were basing their decision primarily on their religious belief that they would be rewarded in an afterlife because of their willingness to kill themselves. Would you still consider their decision to be rational? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/67 "2014-11-24T16:45:22Z")
I have not read the entire thread, but I mentioned the story to the SO last night. She is a Registered Nurse, and also an Army combat veteran. The first thing she said is, ‘The Army is not a democracy.’ But then she said that professional ethics overrule a military order. The American Medical Association and the World Medical Association have said, as posted on the first page of this thread, determined that it is unethical to force-feed a person who refuses the procedure. As a veteran and a nurse, she said it was an interesting dilemma; but she sided with the nurse. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/68 "2014-11-24T17:06:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > An explicit order to torture would be unlawful, and _must_ be disobeyed. As would an order to machine gun civilians, execute prisoners, etc. That’s irrelevant to the hypothetical that was postulated; the question was hinged around the specific notion that the act considered ‘torture’ would be lawful. > [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > Would you applaud a Nazi soldier that refused a direct order to herd people into the chambers due to his moral objections? > > Consider where your simplistic stance takes you. There is a direct line from blindly following orders to any number of military atrocities. I daresay that keeping a prisoner from killing himself is in no way comparable to herding people into gas chambers. Force-feeding them is the humane thing to do, and pretty much the exact opposite of executing them. > [@Grumman](#): > > If death is the only way somebody can escape their extralegal imprisonment by a government that has had them tortured and still actively defends those torturers, why do you believe is it ethical to deny them that escape? In general, we don’t allow prisoners to ‘escape’ on the basis that they believe their imprisonment is unfair. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again I ask, what about ordering Chaplains not to give Last Rites to prisoners that will not cooperate fully with Military Intelligence, or ordering them to show favoritism to those that do? Probably illegal, and I wouldn’t endorse such a tactic if it were, but if it were legal I wouldn’t object to it - letting someone convince themselves they’re going to Hell if they don’t cooperate could be a powerful negotiating tool. There s nothing I know of that makes this order illegal. If the nurse disagrees, then he can face a court martial and try to convince them otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/69 "2014-11-24T17:07:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …her superior officers who she swore a legally binding oath to obey? > > And she’s free to not re-up when her term is over. Until then, if she wants to violate orders, she gets to to face the consequences of that. > > This is cut and dry. The military has an obligation to not let prisoners die while in their custody, even if those prisoners are set on killing themselves, and she’s refusing a lawful order to that end. Officers don’t “re-up” **Sampti,** that’s what enlisted do. Officers are technically free to resign their commission at any time, however the resignation has to be accepted by the government. If she is obligated due to her education expenses being paid or partially paid by the government, she will have to repay a portion of that. But yes, she CAN tell the government she’s had enough and resign. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/70 "2014-11-24T17:12:07Z")
The nurse should be commended and given complete control over the whole base ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/71 "2014-11-24T17:14:31Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The nurse should be commended and given complete control over the whole base And promoted to President. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/72 "2014-11-24T17:15:28Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > The military is what society as whole decides it is and if the society changes, the military needs to adapt accordingly. The military is under more stringent oversight than ever before and that is absolutely right and proper. > > We really, _really_ don’t want that to be the other way round. Right, and what you’re missing is we’ve decided the military is a place where the civilian government gets to write all the rules and the military has to follow those rules. The rules are that it’s against military law to refuse to obey an order. For the military to **decide on its own** to incorporate professional association guidelines into military law that would actually violate the concept of civilian control of the military. We’re basically saying we think this sole nurse should have the authority to decide (I apologize for using she earlier, I had seen it used in the thread and assumed it was based on direct knowledge of this nurse’s gender) on the rules for himself, which violates all the concepts of oversight and etc you’re talking about. Individual service members cannot exercise their conscience independently, they can only be permitted to do so within the framework society has provided–and that makes clear that they can refuse illegal orders (and defines what those are) and that they cannot refuse legal orders. Nothing about this order was illegal under military law. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can military personnel refuse an order that can cause them to lose their job? There’s no such principle. In this case I believe this soldier is being threatened with losing his job for not obeying the order (that’s what dishonorable discharge is), I think his primary job is with the military. There is actually some Federal law on the books that protects employment rights of service members (i.e., you can’t fire someone for being deployed) that maybe read constructively could protect this nurse’s job if he also has a civilian one. But that’s a WAG. In general you can 't disobey orders because they might have bad consequences to you, again, that severely undermines what the military is. What if all the Union soldiers facing off on Pickett’s charge decided to flee because obeying orders could have bad consequences to them? There’s implicit in the chain of command the authority to order subordinates into bad situations, including ones in which you know some will most certainly die. Usually military law is structured to conform to some degree with professional obligations for those types of service members, though. For example a military defense attorney cannot be ordered to break attorney client confidentiality because a superior wants him to, but that’s all specifically laid out in the rules/regulation/laws governing the military. It appears that the prohibition on force feeding, being a recent professional stance in the United States, is not incorporated into the military laws or rules. Should it be? I don’t know, or even care much. But until it is this person broke the law. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/73 "2014-11-24T17:18:22Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > And promoted to President. No title less than Emperor would do. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/74 "2014-11-24T17:20:57Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I have not read the entire thread, but I mentioned the story to the SO last night. She is a Registered Nurse, and also an Army combat veteran. > > The first thing she said is, ‘The Army is not a democracy.’ But then she said that professional ethics overrule a military order. The American Medical Association and the World Medical Association have said, as posted on the first page of this thread, determined that it is unethical to force-feed a person who refuses the procedure. As a veteran and a nurse, she said it was an interesting dilemma; but she sided with the nurse. Professional ethics can overrule for an individual on a personal level, but if your SO was actually in the Army she knows that they don’t overrule the UCMJ. The UCMJ and broader military policies and regulations are what decide how these conflicting issues are resolved. From what I’ve read about this case there is nothing in that body of regulation that would allow a “conscience refusal” based on professional ethics. I know the situation for other professions (like military lawyers) is different in that they can’t be ordered to do things that violate fundamental concepts like client confidentiality. Some of that gets into true constitutional issue though (i.e., providing a defendant with an attorney but one who cannot provide them with the rights they normally receive from such an attorney would be murky constitutional grounds, albeit the SCOTUS has generally given the executive branch liberal decision making power on issues like that.) ---
**Author:** ![Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aca169/32.png) [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stately_Greek_Automaton)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/75 "2014-11-24T17:56:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But pointedly, it was never recognized as such by the WMA or AMA until 2005. Like I said, I think this was a political gesture aimed at a particular situation rather than a general practice. > > I have no problem with their belief. I’m on record as saying the Guantanamo detainees should be released. But saying I agree with their political position on this issue doesn’t mean I agree with the principle of politicizing the practice of medicine. [Here](http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/h31/) is a previous declaration from 1991, so although there may be some political motivation from Guantanamo in their 2005 actions, it’s in line with their previously statements. Specifically this: > [@](#): > > Forcible feeding is never ethically acceptable. Even if intended to benefit, feeding accompanied by threats, coercion, force or use of physical restraints is a form of inhuman and degrading treatment. Equally unacceptable is the forced feeding of some detainees in order to intimidate or coerce other hunger strikers to stop fasting. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > What does the AMA say about allowing someone to kill himself while in custody? What is the military supposed to do once this prisoner becomes unconscious due to hunger? It’s the WMA, but from the article above, they ultimately seem to support a patient’s right to die through a hunger strike even in violation of what the military wants. The guidelines indicate once the prisoner is unconscious, the doctor can resuscitate them once, but only to insure that the patient still wants to continue with what they’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/76 "2014-11-24T18:01:00Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Officers don’t “re-up” **Sampti,** that’s what enlisted do. Officers are technically free to resign their commission at any time, however the resignation has to be accepted by the government. If she is obligated due to her education expenses being paid or partially paid by the government, she will have to repay a portion of that. But yes, she CAN tell the government she’s had enough and resign. I’ll pass that on to Sampti if I see him, but yes, you are correct in that regard and I concede my error. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/77 "2014-11-24T18:02:40Z")
Sorry, **Smapti,** no offense intended. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/78 "2014-11-24T18:07:25Z")
> [@Stately\_Greek\_Automaton](#): > > [Here](http://www.wma.net/en/30publications/10policies/h31/) is a previous declaration from 1991, so although there may be some political motivation from Guantanamo in their 2005 actions, it’s in line with their previously statements. Are you sure that’s the original declaration from 1991? It says it incorporates the 1992 and 2006 revisions. My understanding is that the original declaration (which goes back to 1975) was that medical personnel could not participate or support torture. But the revision that defined forced feeding as a form of torture only goes back to 2005. I’ll admit however I only have this at second hand - I don’t have the various editions of the proclamation as it evolved over the years. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/79 "2014-11-24T18:26:35Z")
I’m not sure the fact that “it wasn’t always torture” signifies. Would you condemn a psychiatrist who refused to administer electro-shock therapy because it was once a widely accepted practice? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/80 "2014-11-24T18:34:27Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > There’s no such principle. In this case I believe this soldier is being threatened with losing his job for not obeying the order (that’s what dishonorable discharge is), I think his primary job is with the military. There is actually some Federal law on the books that protects employment rights of service members (i.e., you can’t fire someone for being deployed) that maybe read constructively could protect this nurse’s job if he also has a civilian one. But that’s a WAG. > > In general you can 't disobey orders because they might have bad consequences to you, again, that severely undermines what the military is. What if all the Union soldiers facing off on Pickett’s charge decided to flee because obeying orders could have bad consequences to them? There’s implicit in the chain of command the authority to order subordinates into bad situations, including ones in which you know some will most certainly die. Not what I’m talking about at all. I’m speaking more directly, in that to be a nurse in the military you have to already be a licensed state nurse. If the military commands a military nurse to do something that goes against the precepts of that state nursing association and that state finds and decides to pull the license then that person is no longer qualified to be a military nurse. What happens next? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447.md?page=5)