# Should the navy nurse who refused to force feed Guantanamo prisoners be discharged? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2014, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447 "2014-11-23T23:46:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/81 "2014-11-24T18:35:38Z")
The Army discharges all its nurses and hires private contractors instead. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/82 "2014-11-24T19:10:10Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Not what I’m talking about at all. I’m speaking more directly, in that to be a nurse in the military you have to already be a licensed state nurse. If the military commands a military nurse to do something that goes against the precepts of that state nursing association and that state finds and decides to pull the license then that person is no longer qualified to be a military nurse. What happens next? That’s a good question. They’ve been force feeding Guantanamo detainees for some time now, is this the first case in which a registered nurse (as opposed to some prison guard or orderly type) has been doing the feeding? I wouldn’t be surprised if State nursing organizations have declined to act on somethinf that happens in another country and under the umbrella of military law. Likely they wouldn’t want the legal battle. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/83 "2014-11-24T19:22:11Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > That’s a good question. They’ve been force feeding Guantanamo detainees for some time now, is this the first case in which a registered nurse (as opposed to some prison guard or orderly type) has been doing the feeding? I wouldn’t be surprised if State nursing organizations have declined to act on somethinf that happens in another country and under the umbrella of military law. Likely they wouldn’t want the legal battle. The “They’ve” in your second sentence-We _don’t_ know how many are doctors, how many are nurses and how many are orderlies, do we? It may be the this nurse may not be the rare one that objects, but may be the rare one that got given those particular orders-I don’t think we know just yet, do we? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/84 "2014-11-24T19:56:50Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Again I ask, what about ordering Chaplains not to give Last Rites to prisoners that will not cooperate fully with Military Intelligence, or ordering them to show favoritism to those that do? Don’t clergy have ethics, too? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/85 "2014-11-24T20:05:38Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Don’t clergy have ethics, too? That’s why I asked the question. If it were expected that nurses put aside their professional nursing ethics for the good of the military, would we not expect the same in the case of military chaplains? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2014, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/86 "2014-11-24T23:42:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > What an incredibly meaningless non-reply. Why didn’t you just type “bloorg” or “glarp” instead? Because it was a cool story. You didn’t think you were making a debate argument worth responding to, did you? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/87 "2014-11-25T00:23:09Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > If death is the only way somebody can escape their extralegal imprisonment by a government that has had them tortured and still actively defends those torturers, why do you believe is it ethical to deny them that escape? These prisoners are not being force-fed for the sake of the patient, but to whitewash America’s crimes against them, to disguise the fact that they consider their continued imprisonment by their one-time torturers a fate worse than death. Because I think medical professionals have, or should have, an obligation to keep their patients alive. And I think that if somebody is imprisoned, the state has a special obligation to take care of them. If they’re being tortured, it needs to stop; if they’re being held illegally, they need to be let go, but letting them commit suicide isn’t an acceptable alternative. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/88 "2014-11-25T01:03:56Z")
I could only find one legal ruling in the US, and it would appear that force feeding of prisoners in NOT illegal. [Theresa C. LANTZ, Commissioner, Department of Correction v. William B. COLEMAN.](http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2119936130691213027&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) > [@](#): > > In the present case, there was ample and convincing evidence that allowing the defendant to starve himself to death will harm the orderly administration and security of the prison where he is incarcerated, upsetting the other inmates, requiring additional measures to deal with the inmate reactions and potentially causing unrest, demonstrations and violence. His suicide by starvation would be contrary to the preservation of his life. He seeks by his hunger strike to force a further investigation by state authorities into his criminal conviction and its circumstances, which is an attempt to manipulate the state. And his death would deprive his 173\*173 innocent, dependent children of his future financial support. For all of these reasons, the state has established a reasonable degree of probability of success on the merits in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/89 "2014-11-25T02:42:27Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I could only find one legal ruling in the US, and it would appear that force feeding of prisoners in NOT illegal. > > [Theresa C. LANTZ, Commissioner, Department of Correction v. William B. COLEMAN.](http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=2119936130691213027&hl=en&as_sdt=2&as_vis=1&oi=scholarr) Not really on point. In fact, there wasn’t any argument on the issue raised here. > [@](#): > > Although the integrity of the medical profession is sometimes mentioned as a factor in case law; see id.; and it was pleaded by the state, there was no testimony as to such, it was not briefed and the court finds that claim to be abandoned. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/90 "2014-11-25T04:48:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Not really on point. In fact, there wasn’t any argument on the issue raised here. Why not? A major argument seems to be that this procedure is torture. THis ruling clearly states it’s not. Got one from a US court saying it is? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/91 "2014-11-25T05:01:05Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I’m not sure the fact that “it wasn’t always torture” signifies. It goes back to my earlier suggestion that this decision may have been made for political rather than medical reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/92 "2014-11-25T05:17:23Z")
Torture really only means one, arguably two things as far as the military is concerned. If U.S. law says it is torture, then it is torture. Where it could be two, is if a treaty we are signatory to says a thing is torture, then it is torture. But that’s via virtue of treaties actually being incorporated into U.S. law, so it goes back to what the law says. I’m not aware of any treaty we’ve signed that says force feeding is torture, or any statute that governs the military that says it is not to be done because it is torture. We’ve heard I believe people who have occupational knowledge of prison medical treatment say it happens in civilian prisons as well. That’s the end all be all to me in terms of whether an order is lawful or not. Moral and lawful aren’t the same thing, and the actual legal system has to be concerned with the lawful part. Morally, I’ve honestly not given force feeding a lot of thought. I’m not sure I care one way or the other. But I don’t believe the AMA or the equivalent nursing association have particular moral weight over and above anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/93 "2014-11-25T05:21:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > We as a society have decided when personal ethics can overrule an order, we have not and should not give individual soldiers carte blanche to impose their own ethical system into it. Again, if you want to do that you need to not volunteer in the first place. Barring that you can do what this person did–and you will pay the consequences. The problem is that I suspect these points aren’t stressed too much by the recruiters. I somehow doubt they first present the potential recruits with a slideshow about the horrors of war or make sure they clearly understand that they might have to do things they’ll find morally repugnant, and so on… IMO enlisting in the army is sold on false pretenses, which I find extremely problematic (and I’m nice, here) and as the result the engagements kids take when they join isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. In consequence, I’m extremely likely to support those soldiers who have second thoughts about what is ordered to them. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/94 "2014-11-25T05:44:13Z")
I retired from an over twenty year career in the Army (I wasn’t enlisted, though), and any reasonable reading of the history of armies since time immemorial plus my own personal experience will reveal that a lot of young men sign up out of ignorance. I think we do a decent job setting them up to succeed in life once they’re out, especially in terms of on the job training while in service and robust assistance getting traditional education afterward, but yeah I mean I don’t see how nation’s can field armies if we try to have our recruiters tell young guys that lots of aspects of being in the military really suck. That’s not good sales practice. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/95 "2014-11-25T06:03:32Z")
Good sales practice in terms of good _sales_ practice, rather than _good_ sales practice, that is. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/96 "2014-11-25T07:49:44Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > The problem is that I suspect these points aren’t stressed too much by the recruiters. I somehow doubt they first present the potential recruits with a slideshow about the horrors of war or make sure they clearly understand that they might have to do things they’ll find morally repugnant, and so on… Just to be clear this wasn’t an impressionable young kid. It was an 18 yr veteran nearing eligibility to retire. As a nurse that means an officer. An officer can submit their resignation request at any time. It’s sometimes accepted even if they have a service obligation remaining. This ethical dilemma would probably be a good justification for a release from the obligation. Even for enlisted the US Army’s way of dealing with someone who deserts or simply refuses to deploy for most of the current campaigns is to discharge them without any judicial proceedings or punishment. The discharge is overwhelmingly characterized as General not Dishonorable. In the current volunteer force they want people that want to be there and accept the values and obligations of the profession. If you can’t or won’t, they don’t want you. > [@](#): > > IMO enlisting in the army is sold on false pretenses, which I find extremely problematic (and I’m nice, here) and as the result the engagements kids take when they join isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. In consequence, I’m extremely likely to support those soldiers who have second thoughts about what is ordered to them. You agree with the typical US military practice at this time It appears the Navy is also supporting this nurses ability to choose the medical profession over the profession of arms. The Navy is following an administrative process to discharge them; this is not a court martial for disobeying a lawful order. “Go be a nurse. You just can’t be a Navy nurse.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/97 "2014-11-25T14:33:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why not? A major argument seems to be that this procedure is torture. THis ruling clearly states it’s not. Got one from a US court saying it is? The body of US law - like your cite - is almost unanimous in holding that prison authorities can forcefeed prisoners on hunger strikes (for example, _In re Sanchez_, 577 F.Supp. 7; _Department of Public Welfare v. Kallinger_, 134 Pa.Cmwlth. 415; or, _McNabb v. Department of Corrections_, 163 Wash.2d 393.) However, that’s not relevant at all. Whether it’s torture is only relevant to the underlying philosophical debate. The AMA says it’s _impermissible_. First, as I pointed out, the parties in the OP’s case are not a prison authority and an inmate. They’re the military and a _medical provider_. Second, and perhaps most importantly, the reason prisons can forcefeed prisoners is because the Constitution grants them lesser protections by the nature of their convictions. Nobody at Guantanamo has been convicted of anything, so the body of prison law only outlines the minimum possible threshold for those prisoners’ constitutional rights. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2014, 8:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/98 "2014-11-27T08:28:26Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > An unnamed navy nurse is currently in danger of being discharged by a formal board of inquiry for refusing to force feed Guantanamo prisoners, believing the practice to be in direct contradiction of his/her professional ethics. The nurse may have a point. > > The above is from a [New York Times article](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/20/health/nurses-urge-leniency-over-refusal-to-force-feed-at-guantnamo-bay.html?_r=0) on the subject, but there are [many news stories you can find using Google](https://news.google.com/news?ncl=dnFypQLXgUz7TQMjNDO022jHW8yTM&q=Navy+Nurse+Guantanamo&lr=English&hl=en&sa=X&ei=DnByVMryI5SmyASS-oGwAQ&ved=0CCQQqgIwAA). Other medical associations have made similar statements. > > I want to stir the pot a little bit more and mix it up with the pharmacists who refuse to issue contraceptives. My reason: reading the media and looking at online commentary it looks like the standard positions are reversed in this case; conservatives (who laud the pharmacists for their moral fiber) think the nurse should be discharged and even punished. Liberals seem to think the nurse is right in his/her ethical stance and should not face retaliation. > > What say you? Are the two cases different? How do you feel about the pharmacists and this nurse? Should they both face punishment for refusing to do their duty. Both be applauded for standing up for their principles? Or is your position more nuanced? > > For myself I am more empathetic with the nurse than I am with the pharmacists, but I think nobody should be forced to do tasks that are against their moral principles. I do however believe that both the nurse and the pharmacists can and maybe should face firing for their moral stand. Keep licenses, lose jobs if they were ordered to do anything and refused. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447/99 "2014-11-28T21:12:55Z")
I think the issue here is the manner in which the nurse loses his job. A dishonorable discharge seems like a punishment. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-navy-nurse-who-refused-to-force-feed-guantanamo-prisoners-be-discharged/705447.md?page=4)