# Should the NFL enact Affirmative Action (hire more white players) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913 "2016-01-22T22:01:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/21 "2016-01-22T22:48:43Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > This is why I said I was serious. > > I actually am serious about this. The question is a matter of consistency, not moral or political or even philosophical. Consistency. That is the only point I am making. > > If it is good for an imbalance in one area it is good for an imbalance in another. One other thing should be evident about the NFL. Affirmative action at top universities [hurts Black and Hispanic students](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/) for a predictable reason. Students get admitted to schools because of their race, where they wouldn’t be able to get in otherwise. Once in those schools, they find that they’re out of their league academically, and thus they sink to the bottom of their classes, they drop out in large numbers, they choose the lease challenging majors, and their future academic and job prospects are irrevocably harmed. Now if a bunch of pasty, 160-pound white guys were allowed to play in the NFL based on race when they couldn’t get in based on athletic ability, they’d face a similar problem, but much more dramatic. They would compete physically against black guys twice their size. As a result, they’d be injured, severely and often. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/22 "2016-01-22T22:57:37Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Affirmative action at top universities [hurts Black and Hispanic students](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/) for a predictable reason. Students get admitted to schools because of their race, where they wouldn’t be able to get in otherwise. Once in those schools, they find that they’re out of their league academically, and thus they sink to the bottom of their classes, they drop out in large numbers, they choose the lease challenging majors, and their future academic and job prospects are irrevocably harmed. It is good to see that you are concerned with the difficulties of blacks and latinos. Would you like to start a start a petition with me so that we can increase taxes and improve public education? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/23 "2016-01-22T23:00:52Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Should the NFL enact Affirmative Action (hire more white players)? I say they should. I support AA in instances when white people dominate the situation… so if blacks dominate the NFL, we need AA for white people, right? If you want more white people in the NFL, you just need to reduce their opportunities elsewhere. Playing pro sports is a pipe dream available to a tiny percentage of those who hold that dream, and playing football at a big-time college program means sacrificing academics, as has been well-documented. White people are underrepresented in the NFL relative to black people, at least in large part, because they have greater opportunity for education and careers. Is that really something that must be rectified by a program? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/24 "2016-01-22T23:08:15Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > No, that’s not true. Using affirmative action to compensate for historical or currents factors and give everyone an equal shot at employment or college or whatever may have been the initial reason why affirmative action was created, and the primary defense in the early days. > > But not anymore. Today, the stated legal justification for affirmative action is that a racially diverse group of students, for instance, is inherently better than a non-diverse group. This is what the Supreme Court majority said in their decision in [Grutter vs. Bollinger](http://www.ncsl.org/research/education/affirmative-action-court-decisions.aspx). The University of Michigan cited a “compelling interest in achieving diversity among its student body”; the Supreme Court agreed. Those are orthogonal points. The theory behind AA has not changed since the basis for AA programs are still to help generally disadvantaged groups (eg. women, Blacks, Hispanics, etc.). > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > One other thing should be evident about the NFL. Affirmative action at top universities [hurts Black and Hispanic students](http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/) for a predictable reason. Actually it doesn’t. This is why the mismatch theory is largely dismissed by both universities and experts in the field. Note that that for better or worse, the market has decided that this is not a compelling argument backed by facts. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Now if a bunch of pasty, 160-pound white guys were allowed to play in the NFL based on race when they couldn’t get in based on athletic ability, they’d face a similar problem, but much more dramatic. They would compete physically against black guys twice their size. As a result, they’d be injured, severely and often. Your analogy is particularly poor given students are not competing in a zero sum physical game the way athletes are. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/25 "2016-01-22T23:11:52Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > If you want more white people in the NFL, you just need to reduce their opportunities elsewhere. Playing pro sports is a pipe dream available to a tiny percentage of those who hold that dream, and playing football at a big-time college program means sacrificing academics, as has been well-documented. > > White people are underrepresented in the NFL relative to black people, at least in large part, because they have greater opportunity for education and careers. Is that really something that must be rectified by a program? I’m going to repeat my post from above: If you want to say well the NFL doesn’t care whether a a linebacker is black or white, they are going to hire the best person… ok, I think that is a true statement. I’m not sure I’ve changed my mind but I can’t say I totally disagree with you either. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/26 "2016-01-22T23:14:11Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m going to repeat my post from above: > > If you want to say well the NFL doesn’t care whether a a linebacker is black or white, they are going to hire the best person… ok, I think that is a true statement. > > I’m not sure I’ve changed my mind but I can’t say I totally disagree with you either. I’m saying that the racial mix in the player pool is a symptom of white people doing better, and not needing help. It’d be like noticing that hobos were disproportionately black, and working on getting more white hobos. Boxing is the same way. Where are all the white American boxers? Doing something else instead. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/27 "2016-01-22T23:16:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Should the NFL enact Affirmative Action (hire more white players)? I say they should. I support AA in instances when white people dominate the situation… so if blacks dominate the NFL, we need AA for white people, right? > > I’m serious… this is not a joke or an exaggeration. > > I could have the wrong opinion, I could be convinced of that, but my question is sincere. > > ETA: this was inspired by, if Spike Lee want to boycott the Oscars because he feels the movie industry unfairly discriminates against blacks, why don’t we therefor correct the sports industry because it unfairly discriminates against whites. 1. As noted, there is no evidence of discrimination against Whites in professional sports. In fact, I think all things being equal, being White is a positive benefit. Just look at any NBA draft with a highly drafted White player, and then compare them to their peers in terms of career performance. You will almost surely see they were drafted too highly. 2. Again, as noted, the point of AA is not solely equal representation, but rather correcting for external factors that hinder equal opportunity. Those things do not seem to exist here. 3. The NFL is a private organization. They generally should not be forced to have AA programs any more than Apple or Google should. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/28 "2016-01-22T23:20:12Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I’m saying that the racial mix in the player pool is a symptom of white people doing better, and not needing help. It’d be like noticing that hobos were disproportionately black, and working on getting more white hobos. > > Boxing is the same way. Where are all the white American boxers? Doing something else instead. I’m very reluctant to say this because I don’t want to offend anyone. What if black people are faster or stronger? Would not this give them an - advantage - in sports. It may not have a political connotation but it still would be an advantage. I recognize that the statement that African Americans are better athletes is controversial. I think it is probably true but if you showed me data that it was not true I would accept the data. But, what if they do have an advantage in terms of strength and speed? Should we account for this? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/29 "2016-01-22T23:22:48Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > 1. As noted, there is no evidence of discrimination against Whites in professional sports. In fact, I think all things being equal, being White is a positive benefit. Just look at any NBA draft with a highly drafted White player, and then compare them to their peers in terms of career performance. You will almost surely see they were drafted too highly. > > 2. Again, as noted, the point of AA is not solely equal representation, but rather correcting for external factors that hinder equal opportunity. Those things do not seem to exist here. agreed > [@](#): > > 1. The NFL is a private organization. They generally should not be forced to have AA programs any more than Apple or Google should. But do you think places like Apple or Google should voluntarily adopt AA policies? (I do) ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/30 "2016-01-22T23:36:55Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > It is good to see that you are concerned with the difficulties of blacks and latinos. Would you like to start a start a petition with me so that we can increase taxes and improve public education? Your post is not coherent. If a person wants to ease the (economic) difficulties of anyone, that person will want to cut taxes, obviously. When taxes go down, that leads to people of all races keeping more of their own money, and thus being able to afford more of what they want and need. When taxes go up, it has the opposite effect on people of all races. As for public education, it’s been [chewing up more and more tax money for decades](http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/wp-content/uploads/Cato-pct-cost-scores-Coulson-Sept-2012.gif) without producing even a minor increase in test scores. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2016, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/31 "2016-01-22T23:46:27Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Your post is not coherent. If a person wants to ease the (economic) difficulties of anyone, that person will want to cut taxes, obviously. When taxes go down, that leads to people of all races keeping more of their own money, and thus being able to afford more of what they want and need. When taxes go up, it has the opposite effect on people of all races. except for the fact that poor people & single parents, don’t pay any/much taxes at all… > [@](#): > > As for public education, it’s been [chewing up more and more tax money for decades](http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/wp-content/uploads/Cato-pct-cost-scores-Coulson-Sept-2012.gif) without producing even a minor increase in test scores. You’re right. We need a massive increase in taxes. We need to make sure all homes and neighborhoods are safe and stable. We need to make sure that the stability derived from economic success and economic stability is afforded to all people. We need a socialized government and that means rasing taxes. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/32 "2016-01-23T00:19:17Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > except for the fact that poor people & single parents, don’t pay any/much taxes at all… I know some poor people and single parents who would be quite surprised to learn that. It seems rather like you’re trying to hijack your own thread. I’d be happy to discuss there matters in a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/33 "2016-01-23T00:21:52Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I know some poor people and single parents who would be quite surprised to learn that. You do? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/34 "2016-01-23T00:27:26Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I know some poor people and single parents who would be quite surprised to learn that. You know, I have a better answer: Lets get rid of taxes for poor people all together and double the taxes on the wealthy. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/35 "2016-01-23T00:43:18Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Just look at any NBA draft with a highly drafted White player, and then compare them to their peers in terms of career performance. You will almost surely see they were drafted too highly. I’m snowed in and waiting for the Clippers-Knicks game, so I took a crack at testing this. Below is every white guy drafted in the lottery from 2006-2014, and how they compare in career PER to the average of players drafted at the same spot: Andrea Bargnani (#1) -3.9 Adam Morrison (#3) -8.2 Enes Kanter (#3) +2.6 Cody Zeller (#4) -1.3 Kevin Love (#5) +7.3 Ricky Rubio (#5) +0.8 Jonas Valanciunas (#5) +3.0 Alex Len (#5) -2.4 Danilo Gallinari (#6) +2.3 Jan Vesely (#6) -3.0 Nik Stauskus (#8) -5.7 Joe Alexander (#8) -3.5 Gordon Hayward (#9) +1.5 Spencer Hawes (#10) -0.8 Brook Lopez (#10) +6.2 Jimmer Fredette (#10) -2.1 JJ Redick (#11) +1.7 Cole Alrich (#11) +3.7 Meyers Leonard (#11) -0.7 Doug McDermott (#11) -4.3 Steven Adams (#12) +0.3 Tyler Hansbrough (#13) +1.5 Kelly Olynyk (#13) +2.6 Overall: -2.4 ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/36 "2016-01-23T00:45:37Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > I’m very reluctant to say this because I don’t want to offend anyone. What if black people are faster or stronger? Would not this give them an - advantage - in sports. It may not have a political connotation but it still would be an advantage. > > I recognize that the statement that African Americans are better athletes is controversial. I think it is probably true but if you showed me data that it was not true I would accept the data. > > But, what if they do have an advantage in terms of strength and speed? Should we account for this? I don’t think genetics work that way. Having dark skin doesn’t make you closely related to all other people with dark skin. Some groups of dark-skinned people might be more likely to have genes that correlate with success in sports, but that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/37 "2016-01-23T00:53:48Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > This is why the mismatch theory is largely dismissed by both universities and experts in the field. No terribly long ago, you made the exact same statement in [another thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=777766). You were challenged to defend the statement, and couldn’t do so. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/38 "2016-01-23T00:55:48Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > I don’t think genetics work that way. Having dark skin doesn’t make you closely related to all other people with dark skin. Some groups of dark-skinned people might be more likely to have genes that correlate with success in sports, but that’s it. So then you think the reason why black people dominate sports, particularly football, basketball, boxing and track is because, for whatever reason, black people are more likely to be involved in those sports at a younger age, ie, before the reach the age to enter college/the NFL? I guess one thing that might point to that general dynamic is that MMA is mainly composed of white athletes and white people/white kids are more likely to join marital arts classes when younger… the precursor to competition in MMA. Boxing, by contrast does have a lot of black athletes but there are plenty of boxing gyms a kid can join for free where as there are little/no marital arts classes kids can join for free. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/39 "2016-01-23T01:00:16Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > So then you think the reason why black people dominate sports, particularly football, basketball, boxing and track is because, for whatever reason, black people are more likely to be involved in those sports at a younger age, ie, before the reach the age to enter college/the NFL? > > I guess one thing that might point to that general dynamic is that MMA is mainly composed of white athletes and white people/white kids are more likely to join marital arts classes when younger… the precursor to competition in MMA. > > Boxing, by contrast does have a lot of black athletes but there are plenty of boxing gyms a kid can join for free where as there are little/no marital arts classes kids can join for free. You know what, I’m not sure my facts are correct. USA boxing does train and sponsor kids for the golden gloves… but… the golden gloves are not nearly as popular as they used to be. I’m not really sure where/how the current group of professional black boxers are being trained… I mean, do they start training at age 12 or age 19? The gyms I’ve been associated with have been closer to age 19 for a starting age and for that the training is not free… ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2016, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/40 "2016-01-23T01:01:05Z")
Just the American white guys: Adam Morrison (#3) -8.2 Cody Zeller (#4) -1.3 Kevin Love (#5) +7.3 Nik Stauskus (#8) -5.7 Joe Alexander (#8) -3.5 Gordon Hayward (#9) +1.5 Spencer Hawes (#10) -0.8 Brook Lopez (#10) +6.2 Jimmer Fredette (#10) -2.1 JJ Redick (#11) +1.7 Cole Alrich (#11) +3.7 Meyers Leonard (#11) -0.7 Doug McDermott (#11) -4.3 Tyler Hansbrough (#13) +1.5 Overall: -4.7 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913.md?page=3)