# Should the NFL enact Affirmative Action (hire more white players) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 22, 2016, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913 "2016-01-22T22:01:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/81 "2016-01-27T00:51:45Z")
And so it begins… ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/82 "2016-01-27T09:14:59Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Well, I’ve been saying that for years. 🙂 > > You’d have to really have your head in the sand not to think that much of our average group differences are not due to genetics. 🙂 > > Pick almost any attribute that’s been studied across self-identified groups and see if there is more evidence that the average source gene pools of those populations have been separated, or homogenized. > > Then ask yourself if evolution diverges or not. > > A west african source pool and a european source pool have been separated for something like 70,000 years. A self-identified US black in the NFL probably draws an average of 80% of his genes from a west african source pool; a self-identified white perhaps an average of 5% of his genes from the same pool (and that’s being generous). > > Since mother nature forgot to be egalitarian when she invented evolution, it seems highly unlikely the white guy was blessed with a genetic pool as super good for football as the black guy. > > We are starting to unravel some–though by no means–all of the gene pool differences. For example, homozygosity for ACTN3R (and heterozygosity–577RX) is much commoner among west africans than than whites and asians. Based on the frequencies for variants of this single gene alone, we would expect whites and asians to be (on average) genetically disadvantaged for power sports. If you are homozygous for the 577X variant, fuggetabboutit, power sports-wise. And of course the idea that nature would tinker with just that one gene is beyond ridiculous. > [Sample article, if you are interested:](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1180686/) > _“In addition, the frequency of the α-actinin-3–deficient genotype (577XX) varies from 25% in Asian populations to \<1% in an African Bantu population; the frequency in Europeans is ∼18%… > Interestingly, all male Olympian power athletes in our cohort had at least one copy of the functional R allele of ACTN3 (associated with the presence of α-actinin-3 in skeletal muscle), suggesting that “every variable counts” at the highest levels of sporting competition.”_ Evolution doesn’t work on humans. The reason China and India don’t dominate the sprinting records is their cultures dont believe in running. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/83 "2016-01-27T11:43:32Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Evolution doesn’t work on humans. The reason China and India don’t dominate the sprinting records is their cultures dont believe in running. Cultures reflect the things nature makes us good at. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/84 "2016-01-27T14:41:25Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Well, I’ve been saying that for years. 🙂 Well, that’s where our conversation ends then. Glad you’re honest. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/85 "2016-01-27T20:23:32Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > But those are very complex dynamics. > > Whites make up like 50% of the population. And like 10% of a football team. It’s an uneven proportion. Affirmative action in its original sense did not require proportionality or diversity. It was a remedial measure. Its part of the reason why I am much more in favor of affirmative action for blacks and American Indians than other minorities and certainly more than any affirmative action in favor of whites. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2016, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/86 "2016-01-27T20:57:49Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Should the NFL enact Affirmative Action Answer: NO All hiring, of every kind, universally, should be based on ability, and ability alone. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/87 "2016-01-28T02:03:46Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Affirmative action in its original sense did not require proportionality or diversity. It was a remedial measure. Its part of the reason why I am much more in favor of affirmative action for blacks and American Indians than other minorities and certainly more than any affirmative action in favor of whites. What about a historically black college - shouldn’t AA for whites be part of a remedial measure for its student body? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/88 "2016-01-28T12:22:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Well, that’s where our conversation ends then. Glad you’re honest. Nice to have an honest Young Earth Creationist on board the Dope as well! Likewise. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/89 "2016-01-28T13:18:10Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Nice to have an honest Young Earth Creationist on board the Dope as well! > Likewise. Sure, that totally follows. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/90 "2016-01-28T13:59:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What about a historically black college - shouldn’t AA for whites be part of a remedial measure for its student body? Why would you think that makes sense as a remedial measure? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/91 "2016-01-28T14:01:29Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Why would you think that makes sense as a remedial measure? It fixes past discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/92 "2016-01-28T14:09:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It fixes past discrimination. Do you have evidence that historically black colleges discriminated against white people in the past? If so, please cite. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/93 "2016-01-28T14:35:38Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > Nice to have an honest Young Earth Creationist on board the Dope as well! > Likewise. Can this, now. I dislike labels used to mock. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/94 "2016-01-28T15:08:14Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > It fixes past discrimination. Are you being serious in thinking this is a compelling point? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/95 "2016-01-28T19:28:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you have evidence that historically black colleges discriminated against white people in the past? If so, please cite. They didn’t (not formally at least) but they were part of the overall discriminatory system. They existed due to discrimination against blacks, and having schools that don’t have disproportionate numbers of one race - either one - is part of the overall goal of ending a discriminatory system. If you think that’s just about “diversity,” fine. I think it shows that the line between remedying past discrimination and diversity as its own goal is blurry. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/96 "2016-01-28T19:37:24Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > They didn’t (not formally at least) but they were part of the overall discriminatory system. They existed due to discrimination against blacks, and having schools that don’t have disproportionate numbers of one race - either one - is part of the overall goal of ending a discriminatory system. > > If you think that’s just about “diversity,” fine. I think it shows that the line between remedying past discrimination and diversity as its own goal is blurry. HBCUs came about as a (partial) _remedy_ for that discriminatory system. Affirmative action is (or should be) about remedying and countering discrimination – if a university is not representative of the local population (like some, but not all, HBCUs), but for reasons other than discrimination (HBCUs do not, as far as I know, discriminate by race or ethnicity in any way), then AA should not apply, in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/97 "2016-01-28T19:48:19Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > HBCUs came about as a (partial) _remedy_ for that discriminatory system. What? Herding blacks into their own segregated schools was a remedy for discrimination? Not in this sense of the term “remedy.” > [@](#): > > Affirmative action is (or should be) about remedying and countering discrimination – if a university is not representative of the local population (like some, but not all, HBCUs), but for reasons other than discrimination (HBCUs do not, as far as I know, discriminate by race or ethnicity in any way), then AA should not apply, in my opinion. If we end up with a system in which we have many schools that are all-black, it doesn’t look like we’ve remedied the past system of discrimination to me. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/98 "2016-01-28T20:12:00Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > What? > > Herding blacks into their own segregated schools was a remedy for discrimination? Not in this sense of the term “remedy.” In the sense of “black people wanted/needed education, so they established these HBCUs to meet these needs despite the overall discrimination they faced elsewhere”. > [@](#): > > If we end up with a system in which we have many schools that are all-black, it doesn’t look like we’ve remedied the past system of discrimination to me. I agree that we haven’t remedied past discrimination, though I’m unaware of any school (HBCU or otherwise) that is all-black. Some HBCUs are majority white (or majority non-black). ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/99 "2016-01-28T20:41:28Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Herding blacks into their own segregated schools was a remedy for discrimination? Not in this sense of the term “remedy.” Yes, it was a remedy. Certainly not a perfect one but, a remedy nonetheless. Here’s a short [history](http://www.collegeview.com/articles/article/the-history-of-historically-black-colleges-and-universities) of (many) HBCUs in the US. > [@](#): > > In the years following the Civil War, with the 13th Amendment’s abolition of slavery and reconstruction in the South, things began to change. In 1862, senator Justin Morrill spearheaded a movement to improve the state of public higher education throughout the United States, putting an emphasis on the need for institutions to train Americans in the applied sciences, agriculture, and engineering. The Morrill Land-Grant Act gave federal lands to the states for the purpose of opening colleges and universities to educate farmers, scientists, and teachers. Although many such institutions were created, few were open or inviting to blacks, particularly in the South. Only Alcorn State University in Mississippi was created explicitly as a black land-grant college. It would be 28 years before Senator Morrill rectified this problem. The solution came with the second Morrill Land-Grant Act of 1890, which specified that states using federal land-grant funds must either make their schools open to both blacks and whites or allocate money for segregated black colleges to serve as an alternative to white schools. Sixteen exclusively black institutions received 1890 land-grant funds. So first, many HBCUs were created to provide education to Blacks who were explicitly excluded from majority institutions. One prominent example of this exclusion was Thurgood Marshall, who was rejected from U of Md. Law School because of his race. Second, HBCUs have never by law or tradition excluded White people, so the is no discriminatory practice that needs to be corrected. The reason HBCUs are generally predominately Black is because White people don’t apply to go to them. It’s also why some are now not predominately Black. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913/100 "2016-01-28T20:49:42Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > In the sense of “black people wanted/needed education, so they established these HBCUs to meet these needs despite the overall discrimination they faced elsewhere”. Well, yeah, but to use “remedy” - the same word we’re using to talk about getting rid of discrimination - is incredibly unfair and misleading. It was not a remedy for discrimination, it was the result of it. > [@](#): > > I agree that we haven’t remedied past discrimination, though I’m unaware of any school (HBCU or otherwise) that is all-black. Some HBCUs are majority white (or majority non-black). Most are far more black than the population as a whole. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-nfl-enact-affirmative-action-hire-more-white-players/743913.md?page=6)