Should the NFL enact Affirmative Action (hire more white players)

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

For one thing – have you measured this? Do we have aggregate speed tests divided by race (along with things like height, weight, and position)? It’s certainly possible, but the white WRs and DBs in the NFL are really fast – is there a big difference between the speed of white WRs, DBs, and RBs, and black players in those positions?

Probably not but most white wide receivers and defensive backs don’t make the cut because they are not fast enough. I thought that was the point. There is a lot of homogeneity of skin color among the NFL wide receivers and safeties because there are a lot more really really fast black football players than really really fast white football players.

Secondly, how do we explain the (presumable) faster footspeed of Jamaican sprinters as compared to Nigerian sprinters, or African American sprinters, or Haitian sprinters, or Ghanaian sprinters, or a myriad of others? Is there something special about Jamaican genetics?

Environmental factors. See you win one. But among Jamaicans the blacks dominate their sprinting competitions, there aren’t very many whites on their Olympic sprinting team.

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Probably not but most white wide receivers and defensive backs don’t make the cut because they are not fast enough. I thought that was the point. There is a lot of homogeneity of skin color among the NFL wide receivers and safeties because there are a lot more really really fast black football players than really really fast white football players.

That’s one possible explanation, but not necessarily the only one. And I don’t see a lot of “homogeneity of skin color” in the NFL in any position – I see shades from dark, dark brown, to very pale peach/white, with all shades in between represented. Do you have any data that suggests that NFL WRs with very dark brown skin run faster than WRs with light brown or “coffee with cream” skin?

Environmental factors. See you win one. But among Jamaicans the blacks dominate their sprinting competitions, there aren’t very many whites on their Olympic sprinting team.

There aren’t very many whites in Jamaica, period (less than 1%), so this probably doesn’t tell us much.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

That’s one possible explanation, but not necessarily the only one. And I don’t see a lot of “homogeneity of skin color” in the NFL in any position – I see shades from dark, dark brown, to very pale peach/white, with all shades in between represented. Do you have any data that suggests that NFL WRs with very dark brown skin run faster than WRs with light brown or “coffee with cream” skin?

There aren’t very many whites in Jamaica, period (less than 1%), so this probably doesn’t tell us much.

Are they overrepresented, underrepresented?

Don’t like jamaica, how about South africa?

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Are they overrepresented, underrepresented?

Are you talking about Jamaicans, or skin colors in the NFL (not that I know the answer to either)?

Don’t like jamaica, how about South africa?

I think Jamaica is the more interesting, since it so comprehensively dominates sprinting sports in relation to its size. Whatever cultural/societal/environmental factors are involved in Jamaicans massive overrepresentation among top sprinters, isn’t it possible that these factors are also involved in other sports racial disparities?

[Kimstu]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I don’t see how any of that changes the premise that genetic plays a role in physical and athletic ability or how that athletic ability translates into the dominance of black athletes in certain football positions.

What seems oddest to me about the claim that black dominance of certain sports at the professional level can be significantly and confidently attributed to genetic differences is how drastically the disproportionality jumps between the college and pro levels.

Frinstance: Blacks comprise only about 12% of the US male population, but 52% of NCAA Division I football teams and nearly 68% of NFL players. The NFL recruits less than 2% of the college players every year.

If we assume that at the elite levels of NCAA Div I and the NFL, competition ensures that teams will overwhelmingly consist of the absolute best players available who all strive equally hard to be chosen, and the different outcomes are therefore due to inter-racial genetic differences in innate ability, then the stats look rather peculiar.

First off, given that there are about seven white males for every black male in the US, then under our assumptions, the nearly even 52/48% racial split at the NCAA level implies that blacks are innately on average about seven times as likely as whites to be capable of top-college football play. That’s a pretty hefty genetic advantage.

With a disparity like this, it seems clear that the only reason there are even as many white college footballers as there are is because the absolute number of blacks is so much smaller. If the US had equal numbers of black and white males, we would expect to see only about one out of every eight of the top college football players being white, rather than four out of every eight as at present.

That implies that on average, three-quarters of the present white NCAA players are inferior in football skills to their black counterparts. If there were equal-sized pools of blacks and whites for the colleges to choose from, three-fourths of today’s white players would be off the team.

But wait a minute. That suggests that the ratio of the really top-level college players on the existing teams ought to be about 4:1 black:white, rather than about 1:1. After all, the NFL is selecting only about 2% of all college players: they can afford to pick the very best rather than having to fill up with makeweights as the college teams do. When the NFL chooses the creme de la creme for the pros, they ought to end up with about four black players for every white one.

But the actual split is more like 67/33%, or about two black players for every white one. Under our assumptions of true meritocracy and innate ability differences, white players are actually vastly and inexplicably overrepresented in the NFL for their average ability level.

Something ain’t right here. The naive assumption of differences in performance outcomes being due to innate genetic ability differences between racial categories is not leading to a statistically consistent conclusion.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

Are you talking about Jamaicans, or skin colors in the NFL (not that I know the answer to either)?

I think Jamaica is the more interesting, since it so comprehensively dominates sprinting sports in relation to its size. Whatever cultural/societal/environmental factors are involved in Jamaicans massive overrepresentation among top sprinters, isn’t it possible that these factors are also involved in other sports racial disparities?

Differences between countries? sure.

Differences between black football players in Texas and white football players in Texas? not as much.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Kimstu

What seems oddest to me about the claim that black dominance of certain sports at the professional level can be significantly and confidently attributed to genetic differences is how drastically the disproportionality jumps between the college and pro levels.

Frinstance: Blacks comprise only about 12% of the US male population, but 52% of NCAA Division I football teams and nearly 68% of NFL players. The NFL recruits less than 2% of the college players every year.

If we assume that at the elite levels of NCAA Div I and the NFL, competition ensures that teams will overwhelmingly consist of the absolute best players available who all strive equally hard to be chosen, and the different outcomes are therefore due to inter-racial genetic differences in innate ability, then the stats look rather peculiar.

First off, given that there are about seven white males for every black male in the US, then under our assumptions, the nearly even 52/48% racial split at the NCAA level implies that blacks are innately on average about seven times as likely as whites to be capable of top-college football play. That’s a pretty hefty genetic advantage.

With a disparity like this, it seems clear that the only reason there are even as many white college footballers as there are is because the absolute number of blacks is so much smaller. If the US had equal numbers of black and white males, we would expect to see only about one out of every eight of the top college football players being white, rather than four out of every eight as at present.

That implies that on average, three-quarters of the present white NCAA players are inferior in football skills to their black counterparts. If there were equal-sized pools of blacks and whites for the colleges to choose from, three-fourths of today’s white players would be off the team.

But wait a minute. That suggests that the ratio of the really top-level college players on the existing teams ought to be about 4:1 black:white, rather than about 1:1. After all, the NFL is selecting only about 2% of all college players: they can afford to pick the very best rather than having to fill up with makeweights as the college teams do. When the NFL chooses the creme de la creme for the pros, they ought to end up with about four black players for every white one.

But the actual split is more like 67/33%, or about two black players for every white one. Under our assumptions of true meritocracy and innate ability differences, white players are actually vastly and inexplicably overrepresented in the NFL for their average ability level.

Something ain’t right here. The naive assumption of differences in performance outcomes being due to innate genetic ability differences between racial categories is not leading to a statistically consistent conclusion.

Assuming that division 1 college football isn’t where we do the lion’s share of the filtering, we are still left with the fact that not all positions offer such oversized advantages for small differences in speed. What is the percentage of black receivers and safeties in the NFL?

http://www.citypages.com/news/nfl-a-study-in-racial-separation-by-position-6533654

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Differences between countries? sure.

Differences between black football players in Texas and white football players in Texas? not as much.

Why?

[NorthernStar]

@iiandyiiii

Secondly, how do we explain the (presumable) faster footspeed of Jamaican sprinters as compared to Nigerian sprinters, or African American sprinters, or Haitian sprinters, or Ghanaian sprinters, or a myriad of others? Is there something special about Jamaican genetics?

@iiandyiiii

I think Jamaica is the more interesting, since it so comprehensively dominates sprinting sports in relation to its size. Whatever cultural/societal/environmental factors are involved in Jamaicans massive overrepresentation among top sprinters, isn’t it possible that these factors are also involved in other sports racial disparities?

I’d like to point out that the alleged Jamaican “dominance” in sprint events only really began around 10 years ago, when the likes of Usain Bolt and Asafa Powell emerged as consistent favourites to win major international athletics events. Before UB’s first Olympic gold, Jamaica had not won an olympic medal in men’s 100 or 200 metres sprint since 1980 (i.e. for 28 years), though they had had a few medalists in 400 m (including relays) and in women’s sprint events. In contrast, the utter domination of these events by “blacks” in general has been observable for a much, much longer time period.

In any case, the apparent “dominance” in a sports event by a single (even when small) nation can indeed be explained by any or all of the following reasons without resorting to race. Perhaps they have managed to implement a world class development program. Perhaps they have been more successful at local talent spotting. Perhaps they have made an unpublished breakthrough in training/preparation methods. Perhaps they benefit from developments in medical research and have found a way to circumvent doping controls or otherwise avoid being caught and punished (I suspect many fans don’t know who or what to believe anymore, what with all the recent revelations about corruption and cheating in football, athletics, cycling etc.). Or perhaps Jamaica has simply been blessed to have a generation of disproportionate number of top class sprint talent. Such things have happened before in sports (e.g. the Yugoslav junior soccer team, who became world champions in 1987 with a roster of many future football stars). I doubt the notion of “black sprinter superiority” would be anywhere near the thing it is if it had been all Jamaicans and Americans posting great results. In reality, top male sprinters of the last 30-40 years or so are a much more geographically diverse group. They have been from white majority countries, black majority countries, Europe, Africa, the Americas, both native born and naturalized. Yet, as far as is known, except for a tiny number of “white” and “biracial” exceptions, they have all been “black” and, more specifically, had predominantly West African ancestry.

[iiandyiiii]

@NorthernStar

I’d like to point out that the alleged Jamaican “dominance” in sprint events only really began around 10 years ago, when the likes of Usain Bolt and Asafa Powell emerged as consistent favourites to win major international athletics events. Before UB’s first Olympic gold, Jamaica had not won an olympic medal in men’s 100 or 200 metres sprint since 1980 (i.e. for 28 years), though they had had a few medalists in 400 m (including relays) and in women’s sprint events. In contrast, the utter domination of these events by “blacks” in general has been observable for a much, much longer time period.

A “much, much longer time period”? If you consider several decades much longer… but in the scheme of things, that’s not very long. If black athletes had been dominating sports for millennia, then that might be a bit different.

In any case, the apparent “dominance” in a sports event by a single (even when small) nation can indeed be explained by any or all of the following reasons without resorting to race. Perhaps they have managed to implement a world class development program. Perhaps they have been more successful at local talent spotting. Perhaps they have made an unpublished breakthrough in training/preparation methods. Perhaps they benefit from developments in medical research and have found a way to circumvent doping controls or otherwise avoid being caught and punished (I suspect many fans don’t know who or what to believe anymore, what with all the recent revelations about corruption and cheating in football, athletics, cycling etc.). Or perhaps Jamaica has simply been blessed to have a generation of disproportionate number of top class sprint talent. Such things have happened before in sports (e.g. the Yugoslav junior soccer team, who became world champions in 1987 with a roster of many future football stars). I doubt the notion of “black sprinter superiority” would be anywhere near the thing it is if it had been all Jamaicans and Americans posting great results. In reality, top male sprinters of the last 30-40 years or so are a much more geographically diverse group. They have been from white majority countries, black majority countries, Europe, Africa, the Americas, both native born and naturalized. Yet, as far as is known, except for a tiny number of “white” and “biracial” exceptions, they have all been “black” and, more specifically, had predominantly West African ancestry.

Perhaps similar reasons can explain various racial disparities in sports and elsewhere – differing environments, options, peer influence, media influence, role models, educational environment, parenting, and the like.

Most top sprinters probably have African ancestry, but most of them also probably have European ancestry too. When was the last top sprinter with zero European ancestry?

I’m not saying it’s impossible that genes are part of the explanation, just that this can’t yet be concluded. It could be any number of other reasons – even some other genetic reason, like some combination of African and European genes that give advantages.

[MrDibble]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Don’t like jamaica, how about South africa?

South Africa very much disproves the idea that degree of Black admixture correlates to sprinting performance - some of our fastest sprinters are Coloured, not Black, yet if the correlation were true, they’d be overshadowed by the Blacks.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@MrDibble

South Africa very much disproves the idea that degree of Black admixture correlates to sprinting performance - some of our fastest sprinters are Coloured, not Black, yet if the correlation were true, they’d be overshadowed by the Blacks.

The gene for melanin is not the same gene that affects speed. They just have travelled in each other’s company for a long time.

[MrDibble]

@Damuri_Ajashi

The gene for melanin is not the same gene that affects speed. They just have travelled in each other’s company for a long time.

…yet curiously, in South Africa they choose not to…but somehow, they still do in America?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

Why?

Because football is pretty universally popular in Texas.

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Because football is pretty universally popular in Texas.

Sure, but maybe coaches treat players differently, or maybe parents do, or maybe there are other things involved.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@MrDibble

…yet curiously, in South Africa they choose not to…but somehow, they still do in America?

Really so how many white sprinters on the South African Olympic team?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@iiandyiiii

Sure, but maybe coaches treat players differently, or maybe parents do, or maybe there are other things involved.

So what is it about the environment being created by the coaches that makes the fastest players black?

[iiandyiiii]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So what is it about the environment being created by the coaches that makes the fastest players black?

It could be that coaches encourage the best black athletes to play CB and WR, or if they’re very tall, basketball, while coaches encourage the best white athletes to play QB, or tennis, or something like that.

[MrDibble]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Really so how many white sprinters on the South African Olympic team?

How many sprinters do we have overall? We tend not to qualify for the 100 & 200 very often. But have you seen our last 4x400 relay team? You may recognize the guy on the right…