# Should the Penn State football program get the death penalty? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [November 10, 2011, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543 "2011-11-10T23:01:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/41 "2011-11-11T18:03:41Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > _nods_ Not disputing he’s a scumbag, I’d happily kill him myself. I’m just saying it has nothing to do with football and everything to do with old rich guys protecting old rich guys. That works for Paterno and Sandusky (I don’t believe it, but it’s at least plausible), but not for Curley and Schultz. Once the AD and a VP get involved in the coverup, it’s an institutional issue. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/42 "2011-11-11T18:04:36Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > That works for Paterno and Sandusky (I don’t believe it, but it’s at least plausible), but not for Curley and Schultz. Once the AD and a VP get involved in the coverup, it’s an institutional issue. So I repeat: what does it have to do with the junior coaches, staff, and players that you’re proposing to punish? I should be clear here, too–I’m the kind of PSU Alumni who wishes they’d move the football stadium 30 miles away so the damn games didn’t tie my whole town in lots. I have no particular love for the Lions or JoePa–I just don’t think it’s ever right to punish innocents for the actions of their supervisors. ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/43 "2011-11-11T18:10:38Z")
Nothing, and I feel bad for them. I feel bad for the innocent employees of a company that declares bankruptcy as a result of its own illegal actions as well, but we as a society don’t let that stop us from punishing the company. The legal system will deal with the individuals, but there’s no criminal system in place that’s going to deal with the institutional structure that created the environment in which NCAA football was more important than protecting sexually abused kids. That’s what I think the NCAA has to do. ---
**Author:** ![StusBlues](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@StusBlues](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StusBlues)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/44 "2011-11-11T19:21:28Z")
Penn State has effectively purged their program. The head coach, athletic director, and president of the university have departed over this, and I doubt the bloodletting is over. No one would benefit from giving the program the death penalty at this stage. If anything else happens in the next few years, that’s on the table. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/45 "2011-11-11T20:01:04Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > Nothing, and I feel bad for them. I feel bad for the innocent employees of a company that declares bankruptcy as a result of its own illegal actions as well, but we as a society don’t let that stop us from punishing the company. > > The legal system will deal with the individuals, but there’s no criminal system in place that’s going to deal with the institutional structure that created the environment in which NCAA football was more important than protecting sexually abused kids. That’s what I think the NCAA has to do. Obviously, I think you’re wrong. It’s the difference between actions taken BY or ON BEHALF OF the football program, vs. actions taken by EMPLOYEES of the program that had no benefit to the program. If Sandusky were arrested for stealing the pensions of widows and orphans to pay players under the table, sure, death-penalty the program. He wasn’t. If you can point out some kind of tangible benefit the coverup had to “Penn State Football” as opposed to merely “Sandusky’s reputation”, but I don’t think you can. ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/46 "2011-11-11T20:12:01Z")
> **[Greenville SC News and Weather - WYFF News 4](https://www.wyff4.com/)** > > Get the latest Greenville news and weather. https://wyff-edit.htvapps.net/en/content/filesFor live, local, late-breaking Greenville, SC, news coverage, WYFF 4 is the place to be. For what it’s worth, a recruit in South Carolina has rescinded his verbal commitment from PSU. > [@](#): > > Ranked last year by ESPNU as the 26th linebacker prospect in the country, Ah Ching said he was paid a visit by Penn State’s former assistant coach, Jerry Sandusky. > > “He came to my last spring game going into my senior season. He liked how I moved, laterally, and how gifted I am,” said Ah Ching. This may be enough for the NCAA to take steps toward punishment. Granted, the NCAA of course has some messed up rules, but I’m guessing they don’t care much for former coaches going to different parts of the country to watch players’ spring games. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/47 "2011-11-11T20:16:58Z")
> [@mkecane](#): > > but I’m guessing they don’t care much for former coaches going to different parts of the country to watch players’ spring games. Why would that be the case? Am _ **I** _ not allowed go to different parts of the country to watch spring games? ---
**Author:** ![Wilson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@Wilson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wilson)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/48 "2011-11-11T21:39:31Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Why would that be the case? Am _ **I** _ not allowed go to different parts of the country to watch spring games? I knew it **Munch** - you’re really Gerry Faust, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![mkecane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9e8a1a/32.png) [@mkecane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mkecane)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/49 "2011-11-11T22:14:44Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Why would that be the case? Am _ **I** _ not allowed go to different parts of the country to watch spring games? Looking at it by itself, molestation and such not taken into account, if a former coach of a school, who’s getting a pension for his time as coach at that school, goes to another part of the country to watch a high school spring game, and then one of those players commits to that school, do you think the NCAA might take notice? Especially with a fairly highly rated recruit? I don’t know if Sandusky then gave money back to the athletic department, but if so, he’s a booster. And was Penn State, or were PSU boosters, also giving money to Sandusky’s Second Mile organization? If so, right or wrong, it’s hard to say the NCAA won’t take an interest into whether this violated recruiting rules. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/50 "2011-11-11T22:56:56Z")
> [@Enginerd](#): > > OK, but so what? The students, fans, ticket takers, hot dog vendors, parking lot attendants, and t-shirt sales people at USC, Miami, or SMU didn’t have anything to do with the infractions there either, but those schools had systematic problems and were punished for them. But those were problems relevant to the issue of the administration of NCAA rules. The NCAA has a specific role to play. It’s not the justice department. > [@](#): > > The entire reason for the coverup was the special status that NCAA football enjoys on campuses like Penn State. Imagine if a graduate assistant in the English Department witnessed a tenured professor sodomizing a ten-year-old boy in a classroom. Do you honestly think the university would cover that up the way they have this? Yes. That’s entirely plausible. This sort of thing happens quite a lot and it’s not limited to high-visibility football programs. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/51 "2011-11-12T00:43:27Z")
> [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](#): > > What the NCAA and Penn State should do is conduct a thorough investigation to find out who knew what was going on and dismiss those people. Apologies in advance… “What did he blow, and when did he blow it?” ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/52 "2011-11-12T01:17:10Z")
I’ve always gotten the impression that the death penalty is to nuke a program when nobody in a position of responsibility is willing to fix the program’s problems. In this case, PSU has already nuked the program, by grace of firing everybody in a position of power who was involved. It would be a bit redundant for the NCAA to start sanctions. (We also have a justice system to deal with child molestation, and the NCAA doesn’t really need to get in on the act, but that’s not as strong an objection.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/53 "2011-11-12T01:31:22Z")
Should we close Congress because a few legislators messed around with their interns? The Penn state football program did not bugger that kid in the shower. That was one sick, perverted criminal’s independent action. He had retired from coaching a few years earlier. The school officals that covered it up & lied to a grand jury have been arrested. Others like Paterno reported the incident but got fired for not calling the cops. The football program is made up of players and other coaches that had nothing to do with this incident. ---
**Author:** ![MadTheSwine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MadTheSwine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MadTheSwine)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/54 "2011-11-12T01:38:42Z")
I voted other ust to say" Hell No!" ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/55 "2011-11-12T18:48:26Z")
> [@Wilson](#): > > I knew it **Munch** - you’re really Gerry Faust, aren’t you? I’ll take it as a compliment that you didn’t suggest I was Bob Davie. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/56 "2011-11-13T00:22:07Z")
I don’t see the point in shutting down the football team. Sure, do a thorough investigation and make sure that everybody who had any idea what was going on with Sandusky but didn’t go to the police isn’t back next season, and is permanently unwelcome on every PSU campus. Make sure the investigation doesn’t leave out the administration and trustees. Bring in a new AD, and have him hire a new head football coach who will in turn hire/bring in his own staff, and thereby give the football program itself a fresh start. I can’t see any reason why that shouldn’t suffice. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/57 "2011-11-13T02:50:35Z")
People are calling for this? Dumb. > [@Grumman](#): > > Oh, well if the NCAA doesn’t have rules against covering up felonies, that changes _everything_. It does. Actual crimes are handled by the justice system. The NCAA handles “crimes” against college athletics. This is outside their jurisdiction. > [@I'm Not Dennis Bergkamp](#): > > Based on the information currently available, I voted no. The football program was the backdrop for the crimes, not the reason for them or the beneficiary from them, which are generally the circumstances when the death penalty is warranted for a program. Right. > [@I'm Not Dennis Bergkamp](#): > > That said, I tend to side with Barry Switzer on this when he says that everyone on that coaching staff had to know what was happening. Maybe. Probably. But it’s unfair to accuse them of this without any evidence that this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![bahia\_hombre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@bahia\_hombre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bahia_hombre)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2011, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/58 "2011-11-13T04:10:48Z")
Shutting down one guilty football program misses the point. There needs to be a federal law making it a felony for an eyewitness to fail to report sexual abuse directly to the police. An institution’s internal reporting policy may not be nearly sufficient, as we’ve learned. ---
**Author:** ![Kitten\_Mitten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b782af/32.png) [@Kitten\_Mitten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kitten_Mitten)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/59 "2011-11-14T00:35:50Z")
Hey PSU alum: if you watch this and can honestly say that you think there was no coverup, then I got nothing for you: [http://espn.go.com/videohub/video/clip?id=7229386&categoryid=2378529](http://espn.go.com/videohub/video/clip?id=7229386&categoryid=2378529) > [@](#): > > The alleged sex abuse scandal involving former Penn State assistant football coach Jerry Sandusky has many questioning whether university and law enforcement officials missed numerous opportunities to prevent an apparent tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543/60 "2011-11-14T01:15:58Z")
> [@Kitten\_Mitten](#): > > Hey PSU alum: if you watch this and can honestly say that you think there was no coverup Did anyone actually say this? There are certainly assertions that the coverup was on behalf of “the old boy’s network” rather than “the benefit of the football program”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-penn-state-football-program-get-the-death-penalty/602543.md?page=4)