# Should the red cross/crescent/star/diamond just find a neutral symbol? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649 "2005-12-08T10:39:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/1 "2005-12-08T10:39:49Z")
I heard on the news today that the organisations comprising the International Red Cross and Red Crescent have agreed that Israel can contribute under the banner of the ‘Red Diamond’ (or ‘Red crystal’). ([link](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4479130.stm)) Thinking about this a bit more, wouldn’t it just make sense for all of these organisations to agree on one neutral, international, bold and easily-recognised symbol and use it for all branches? Why can’t they do this? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/2 "2005-12-08T14:16:50Z")
I think because the people in the individual countries are used to the Red Cross/Crescent and associate them with their mission, and are unlikely to ever meet the organisations of other countries. Why fix it if it’s not broken? Plus they’d have to replace all their signs, flags, stationery… ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/3 "2005-12-08T14:17:25Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Thinking about this a bit more, wouldn’t it just make sense for all of these organisations to agree on one neutral, international, bold and easily-recognised symbol and use it for all branches? Why can’t they do this? Lot of goodwill and history in the Red Cross/Red Crescent “brand”. Not worth junking all of it, especially in light of the fact these organisations often operate in areas that are not up to speed on the latest events in organisational re-labelling. Much easier just to work out a tactical fudge for Israel/Palestine to ensure the ambulances can reach as many injured as possible and move on to other matters. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/4 "2005-12-08T14:37:25Z")
I agree that it would be foolish for the International Red Cross/Red Crescent to ditch a symbol that’s recognizable for the sake of religion-neutrality. However, I disagree that any “tactical fudging” was necessary or that this diamond/crystal needed to be created. They could have accepted the Red Star-of-David and not looked like a bunch of anti-Semitic pricks. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/5 "2005-12-08T14:38:28Z")
I would have thought it would enable more effective deployment of resources. Although I take the point about it being a strongly established brand. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/6 "2005-12-08T15:53:19Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > However, I disagree that any “tactical fudging” was necessary or that this diamond/crystal needed to be created. They could have accepted the Red Star-of-David and not looked like a bunch of anti-Semitic pricks. The article on Wikipedia says that they were afraid if they accepted the Star of David, other groups would want their symbol recognized, and the idea is to have one symbol that’s universally recognized. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/7 "2005-12-08T16:04:24Z")
Actually, another advantage of having a universal symbol is that anyone carrying out acts of cowardly aggression towards the Red [Whatever] would not necessarily know which nation or group they were pissing off; in the case of the Red Diamond, isn’t it still a target for anti-semites, because it has an explicit connection with Israel? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/8 "2005-12-08T16:04:58Z")
Besides, at least there’s an alliteration of names: Cross, Crescent, Crystal. All nice “Cr” blends. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/9 "2005-12-08T16:59:44Z")
Dewey Finn: > [@](#): > > The article on Wikipedia says that they were afraid if they accepted the Star of David, other groups would want their symbol recognized, and the idea is to have one symbol that’s universally recognized. Yeah, that’s always been their excuse. But somehow adding a crystal or diamond is better than adding a Star of David (which is certainly more in line with the cross, crescent, and one-time Persian lion that they allow as symbols). The fact is that they never had a serious problem with multiples symbols for multiple groups until one of those groups was Israeli/Jewish. When they decide to ditch the others, I’ll accept the crystal. As long as the crystal is just a non-Jewish substitute to sanitize the fact that a Jewish organization is a member, to heck with it. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/10 "2005-12-08T17:12:30Z")
This only makes sense if they replace all other symbols worldwide with the Red Crystal. Otherwise, they should just admit the Red Magen David. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/11 "2005-12-08T18:00:02Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > Yeah, that’s always been their excuse. But somehow adding a crystal or diamond is better than adding a Star of David (which is certainly more in line with the cross, crescent, and one-time Persian lion that they allow as symbols). > > The fact is that they never had a serious problem with multiples symbols for multiple groups until one of those groups was Israeli/Jewish. When they decide to ditch the others, I’ll accept the crystal. As long as the crystal is just a non-Jewish substitute to sanitize the fact that a Jewish organization is a member, to heck with it. Do you have a cite for this? As well as the usual Arab/Israeli shoe-pissing over this issue, according to [the BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/712202.stm) the Khazakstani and Eritrean organizations have been locked out for daring to use both the red cross AND red crescent together (the horror!) rather than the approved alternatives of one or the other. The only symbols given recognition are the inverse of the swiss flag, the red crescent, and the red lion. No symbol has been added since 1929, due to the difficulty of getting 192 countries to agree on anything, never mind which symbol they will recognise as a universal “stop shooting” symbol. How come it’s such a horrible crime that the Israelis haven’t been allowed to gain international protection for their preferred logo when India didn’t get the Red Swastika in, despite it being a far more widely used symbol in terms of both countries and people? ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/12 "2005-12-08T18:02:13Z")
I guess the [Red Mandelbrot Set](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/MandelbrotSet.html) didn’t make the cut. Pity. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/13 "2005-12-08T18:14:03Z")
As a practical matter the RED Star of David could be confused with the BLUE or other colored symbols of the Israeli state or military. It would make sense to let the Israelis use their religious symbol, but they already have it on so many other things that confusion could result. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/14 "2005-12-08T20:03:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you have a cite for this? No. It’s obviously not an “official” sentiment that there would be some sort of paper trail for. It’s just one of those things that always failed to pass the “smell test” for me. You want to take them at their word, be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/15 "2005-12-08T20:37:39Z")
Originally, it was only even a religious symbol through the fact that the Swiss govenrment had used a cross (in a very squat form) as its flag. The Red Crescent was probably the start of the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Drake\_Tungsten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@Drake\_Tungsten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drake_Tungsten)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/16 "2005-12-08T20:49:50Z")
The Red Crecent was actually adopted by the Turks during thier war with Russia. THey recognized the Red Cross as an organization, but did not want to serve under a cross in any form. Thus they used there own flag, a white crecent on a green background, and adopted the colors of the red cross. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/17 "2005-12-08T22:50:28Z")
This is why I think it would help to unite under a single, bold patently non-religious, neutral symbol; everybody would be able to know what it means, badged resources from one area would easily be able to be deployed in another, and anyone wicked enough to attack the vehicles and stations will not be able, immediately, to determine the nationality of those they are shooting at (which I reason should encourage hesitation in the act, as well as making it harder to perpeetrate acts of violence toward the workers based on hatred of their national identity). At the moment, the red crystal doesn’t so any of that; all it does is to remove a religious symbol; it still prevents the redeployment of resources and it still conspicuously identifies the nationality of the workers. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/18 "2005-12-09T02:53:30Z")
> [@slaphead](#): > > Lot of goodwill and history in the Red Cross/Red Crescent “brand”. Not worth junking all of it, especially in light of the fact these organisations often operate in areas that are not up to speed on the latest events in organisational re-labelling. > Much easier just to work out a tactical fudge for Israel/Palestine to ensure the ambulances can reach as many injured as possible and move on to other matters. I’m in favor of one universal symbol. The question is, how do we get there. It needn’t be an overnight switch. I can imagine a period of using both symbols on a flag (square + cross or crescent) for some number of years with the eventual retirement of the religious symbol. ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/19 "2005-12-11T21:03:28Z")
> [@cmkeller](#): > > No. It’s obviously not an “official” sentiment that there would be some sort of paper trail for. It’s just one of those things that always failed to pass the “smell test” for me. You want to take them at their word, be my guest. There are 192 nations who have signed up to the accords, of every conceivable religion, ethnicity and political arrangement. There are TWO accepted logos, plus one which has been unused for a quarter of a century and is no longer counted. There are discussions about adding one more. And you find it somehow suspicious that the Israelis can’t manage to multiply the number of officially allowed logos by 33% (or 25%, depending on how you measure it) when they are 0.52% of the worlds countries and 0.1% of the worlds population? Like I said, EVERYONE who has asked for another logo since 1929 (before Israel existed) has failed to get it - why should the Israelis get what they want? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649/20 "2005-12-11T21:40:03Z")
I vote for a simple red circle on a white background. Bold, easily recognizable, and not religous. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-red-cross-crescent-star-diamond-just-find-a-neutral-symbol/334649.md?page=2)