# Should the right to a fair trial mean an equal budget for defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 12, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500 "2015-02-12T19:47:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/21 "2015-02-13T19:37:49Z")
Even if we would adopt such a system, it is hard to apply in practice. The prosecution has all the resources of the police department and state crime lab. How do you account for that? I certainly agree that public defense should be adequately funded. In some places it is, and in some places it isn’t. Alaska, for example, has a state agency on par with the Prosecutor’s office (same pay scale, etc) for public defense. Most places don’t achieve that. It does make a difference I think. Mostly, it’s a matter of case loads. When I was a public defender were were expected to handle 20 new felony cases per month, which means of course, clearing 20 old ones off your calendar each month. You can try one or two per month, and the rest will have to be settled somehow. To get the best result for your client in plea negotiations, it is necessary to investigate the case and brief any legal issues. While most cases are appropriate for plea negotiations, the system puts a lot of pressure on the lawyers. [I should add, our public defense system was significantly better funded than many in the country] ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/22 "2015-02-13T19:47:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Yes. > > If you would like to respond seriously, please include > [ul][li]A cite that juries in general ignore the standard of “reasonable doubt”, and[/li][li]An explanation of why you believe spending more money on the defense will address that issue.[/ul][/li]Regards, > Shodan You are, in essence, requesting a citation that demonstrates that a better-funded defense is more effective. So presumably you meant to say, “no”. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/23 "2015-02-13T20:16:05Z")
The disparity in money spent by the prosecution versus public defenders is dramatic. > [@](#): > > Estimated time each attorney has to spend on a case in: > > New Orleans - 7 minutes > Detroit - 32 minutes > Atlanta - 59 minutes > > \ > > In 2007, total spending by state prosecutors offices nationwide exceeded that of public defender offices by nearly $3.5 billion. That same year in California, the budget for public defense was about $300 million less than that of prosecutors. In 2008, for every dollar spent on public defense, taxpayers spent nearly $14 on corrections. > > SOURCE: [Charts: Why You’re in Deep Trouble If You Can’t Afford a Lawyer – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/05/public-defenders-gideon-supreme-court-charts) How anyone can suggest that someone using a public defender is getting a “fair trial” is beyond me. The system is dramatically stacked against the defendants. It is no wonder that "[as many as 90% of all criminal cases are settled by plea bargain."](http://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-procedure/defense-plea-bargains.html) ([97% of all federal cases are settled by plea bargain.](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390443589304577637610097206808)) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/24 "2015-03-01T02:32:22Z")
The majority of criminal cases plead out because the majority of defendants are, in fact, guilty. You wouldn’t want a system in which large numbers of innocent people were routinely being charged with crimes, would you? Many defendants know they’re guilty and just want to end the case and get probation, which is what often happens for nonviolent offenses. I agree that there should be general parity in funding for prosecutors’ offices and public defenders, but a one-size-fits-all funding approach for all criminal trials (incl. cases with private counsel) would be unworkable and not really ensure that justice was done. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/25 "2015-03-01T03:51:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The disparity in money spent by the prosecution versus public defenders is dramatic. But aren’t those numbers a bit misleading given not every defendant needs a public defender? Just using their numbers, they say a public defender is only paid $68/hour on average, but that is $136k annualized. That is a lot more than the average DA is paid even if it’s below market rates. ---
**Author:** ![coffeecat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coffeecat/32/3405_2.png) [@coffeecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coffeecat)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/26 "2015-03-01T05:03:02Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The majority of criminal cases plead out because the majority of defendants are, in fact, guilty. Cite? I personally know two who weren’t, and I’m not a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/27 "2015-03-01T20:26:41Z")
Anecdote = data. It’s a pretty well accepted fact that the majority of criminal defendants are guilty simply because law enforcement and prosecutors rarely bring cases against people where there is no evidence. That is not to say all of them are guilty. > [@brickbacon](#): > > But aren’t those numbers a bit misleading given not every defendant needs a public defender? Just using their numbers, they say a public defender is only paid $68/hour on average, but that is $136k annualized. That is a lot more than the average DA is paid even if it’s below market rates. No, _private_ overflow counsel are paid $65 per hour on average. The low end of the private criminal defense market is about $110 an hour in most states. Public defenders certainly don’t make $136,000 a year. The median salary for a public defender in Florida (or for a state attorney) is about $50,000. That’s about the same amount that the very worst graduates of the very worst law schools will earn at private firms (and the latter can expect to receive substantial performance bonuses, and can expect to be earning double that in five years.) Starting PDs will earn about $40,000 a year in urban markets. There are two other factors which make state attorney jobs more attractive than PD jobs. First, state attorney work is an excellent jumping off point for a career in politics. Public defenders, by and large, are unlikely to be elected to public office (other than the elected PD managerial roles.) Second, state attorneys can transition into fields outside criminal law far more easily. There’s also another budgetary consideration: state attorneys can be selective about prosecution. PDs can’t be selective about which cases they handle unless they can get judges to appoint private counsel. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/28 "2015-03-01T20:39:08Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > The disparity in money spent by the prosecution versus public defenders is dramatic. > How anyone can suggest that someone using a public defender is getting a “fair trial” is beyond me. The system is dramatically stacked against the defendants. As I stated earlier, it varies considerable from place to place. Alaska, DC, and Seattle, for example, are all know to have very professional public defender systems that have very highly skilled attorneys. The Federal Defenders are also very good. I can assure you that the defendants I represented many years ago as a public defender making $18,500 per year, got a fair trial. In fact, many were found not guilty. It would have been better if we have lighter caseloads and more money for investigations, etc., but as the courts like to say, there is a difference between a “fair trial” and a “perfect trial.” Many cases are simply not that complicated, and boil down to one or two key disputed facts. In a typical criminal trial, a good lawyer explains the burden of proof, motivates the jury to do its duty, cross examines the key witness, and perhaps puts on a witness or two for the defense. It requires skill and experience, but not necessarily a large budget. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/29 "2015-03-01T21:09:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, _private_ overflow counsel are paid $65 per hour on average. The low end of the private criminal defense market is about $110 an hour in most states. You are missing my point. The article implied that the sheer difference in money spent should lead one to conclude defendants are receiving ineffective counsel, yet some are being paid far more than the DAs themselves are getting. So the monetary difference doesn’t seem to be the primary factor here even if you assume indigent clients are getting screwed. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/30 "2015-03-02T00:02:20Z")
That is true. I should only have quoted the second and third sentences. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/31 "2015-03-02T00:10:25Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > The majority of criminal cases plead out because the majority of defendants are, in fact, guilty. Actually due to mandatory minimum sentencing laws, I’ve read that plenty of defendants plead guilty/eke out some sort of deal just to not risk a hostile jury or an overworked public defendant sending them to the pokey for ever. Regardless of any guilt - though obviously it’s impossible to quantify how many \*are \*in fact guilty. Since their case didn’t go to trial. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/32 "2015-03-02T00:37:37Z")
There is some of that, yes. But even public defenders and lawyers who specialize in criminal defense will tell you that the great majority of their clients are, in fact, guilty. Their clients are of course entitled to a zealous defense, but a plea bargain makes sense for many if not all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2015, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500/33 "2015-03-02T01:01:27Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > There is some of that, yes. But even public defenders and lawyers who specialize in criminal defense will tell you that the great majority of their clients are, in fact, guilty. Their clients are of course entitled to a zealous defense, but a plea bargain makes sense for many if not all of them. Well, they’re guilty of _something_. Many of my clients were overcharged, and a plea bargain actually achieved rough justice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-right-to-a-fair-trial-mean-an-equal-budget-for-defense/712500.md?page=1)