# Should the Star Trek movie franchise call it quits? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 7, 2003, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574 "2003-08-07T13:12:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/41 "2003-08-08T14:01:41Z")
Nay, you nave! Only to the early 18th century. Yarrr!!! And the thequel be in the 24th and a halfht thenthury! ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/42 "2003-08-08T14:16:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > \*\*I think that most people’s problems are with the story or writing. Inconsistencies, reused plot devices, non sequiturs, bad character development. Am I right in thinking that these are the things that people don’t like about the _Star Trek_ film franchise? \*\* Well, yeah. There wasn’t anything wrong with the production values of “Nemesis” or “Insurrection.” They were well-produced films, well made, well directed, and they didn’t cheap out on the effects. The cast is made up of competent actors so it wasn’t their fault. I think the basic test is this: **Would this movie be a really good movie if I took out the sci-fi elements?** If you can imagine “Star Trek: Nemesis” as a Western or a spy flick, it doesn’t sound like a movie that needs to be made; it’s immediately apparent that the Star Trek elements are the only thing about the movie worth seeing. I mean, there was really very little there. You can work the same test on any movie; change “Attack of the Clones” to a modern-day-based action flick and it would be a C-level movie at best headed straight for video. I can see movies that lousy for $3.99 for the week, and I get to laugh at Treat Williams. Now, “The Wrath of Khan” would work as a Western. “Star Wars” and “The Empire Strikes Back” would work as medeival swords-and-spurs adventures. The stories are fundamentally really good; you can change the sizzle and you’ll still have a decent steak. Now, I must stress that PURE science fiction is different. “Star Trek” and “Star Wars” aren’t really science fiction; pure science fiction is fiction where theoretical technology or reality is used to illustrate a philosophical or sociological point. For instance, “Blade Runner” is pure science fiction; it uses a theoretical technology (artificial people) to examine a philosophical point (the nature of humanity.) “The Sixth Day,” while a mediocre movie, is similar; so was “Minority Report.” Those stories can’t really be expressed the same way in a non-fantasy genre. “Star Trek” and “Star Wars” are, to use one term, operas based in space. You can switch them to other genres and lose very little in the translation. ---
**Author:** ![RikWriter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/49beb7/32.png) [@RikWriter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RikWriter)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/43 "2003-08-08T14:31:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gorgon Heap \* > \*\*They should have stopped after 6 if you ask me. \*\* Well said. Nothing since has even reached the level of mediocrity. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/44 "2003-08-08T15:57:04Z")
How about a buddy movie with Wesly Crusher and Sisko’s forgotten son. The can have all sorts of Hi-jinks as they cruise through Starfleet Academy. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/45 "2003-08-08T16:45:10Z")
Wesley and Jake? [insert nauseated smiley] One of my biggest gripes about Voyager is that they never used the Maquis storyline for anything. You’d think that military officers and members of an anti-government militia would have a bit more trouble working together, but aside from like two or three widely-scattered episodes, the Maquis aspect was totally irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/46 "2003-08-08T17:18:32Z")
I have always thought it should have ended with Wrath of Khan and should have left Spock dead. Aside - I like the idea RickJay’s guide to judging a movie’s story. (A little hard to apply, to non sci fi genres, tho. For ex., I think the basic quest story works even without the Middle Earth elements for the Lord of the Rings movies. And the story of POTC could be transposed out of pirate-dom to another gangster domain.) ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/47 "2003-08-08T20:37:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > I think the basic test is this: > > **Would this movie be a really good movie if I took out the sci-fi elements?** I guess I can see the value of this exercise. My favorite Star Trek film, _The Undiscovered Country_, would probably work pretty well in any postbellum setting. However, do you really think it’s _the_ basic test? My second favorite, _Star Trek: First Contact_, had a pretty good story IMHO. It was engaging and fun, and I think it completely would not have worked as anything but science fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Walloon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/fbc32d/32.png) [@Walloon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walloon)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/48 "2003-08-09T00:06:27Z")
When is someone going to do “Captain Pike: The Early Days”? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/49 "2003-08-09T00:29:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Achernar \* > However, do you really think it’s _the_ basic test? Well, it’s what Roddenberry used to say. [paraphrased] “A good strory stands on its own merits and can be put in virtually any setting.” [from one of my Trek books, don’t feel like looking up the exact quote right now] At a convention, he once said he envisioned the Enterprise Captain as a kind of Horatio Hornblower in outer space. Shatner fit that quite well. Also, remember that Roddenberry wrote TV westerns and cop shows before he ever went into sci-fi. His war experience and working as an LA beat cop helped him get many ideas. Plus, he was talented. Two good things for a successful screenplay. (talent & ideas) I think some of the novels based on Trek characters could transfer well to the screen. There was a Robert T. April meets a teener James T. Kirk novel that reads almost like a screenplay already. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/50 "2003-08-09T03:25:19Z")
If any of the novels is ever made into a movie, it _must_ be an adaptation of “Prime Directive”. That would rock. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/51 "2003-08-09T03:32:42Z")
> [@](#): > > A good strory stands on its own merits and can be put in virtually any setting. While it does have a certain rhetorical charm, I don’t think I can get behind this idea. I think _Back to the Future_ had a great story, but what would it be without time travel? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/52 "2003-08-09T04:15:53Z")
I think you can make a pretty strong argument that “Back to the Future” (a great movie) and pretty much any time travel movie you can name is inherently a TRUE science fiction movie. There, the science fiction part is an integral function of the story, unlike most Star Trek episodes/films. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/53 "2003-08-09T04:29:29Z")
_Back to the Future_ uses fictional technology to illustrate a philosophical or sociological point? I’m sorry, but _Star Trek: Nemesis_ fits this description far more accurately than _BTTF_ does, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/54 "2003-08-09T15:12:47Z")
No, it doesn’t. I can’t think of anything about “Nemesis” that is comparable to true science fiction. Hell, cloning isn’t even science fiction, really. There’s nothing about “Nemesis” that REQUIRES it be in a fantasy or sci-fi setting. The same basic story could be done in today’s world, or on the Spanish Main; a bad guy takes over a country and goes on a rampage of revenge with our hero standing in the way. The sci-fi stuff was secondary and is really no different from any number of Lost Twin stories. I don’t see what point “Nemesis” was trying to make through a fantasy or sci-fi scenario. On the other hand, you can’t do “Back to the Future” without time travel because it’s ABOUT time travel. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/55 "2003-08-09T20:10:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > Hell, cloning isn’t even science fiction, really. But just a minute ago you said that _The 6th Day_ is pure science fiction. Space travel isn’t even science fiction, either. Anyway, I wasn’t questioning that _BTTF_ uses science fiction elements as essential. I was questioning that the science fiction element “is used to illustrate a philosophical or sociological point”. The way you said it and gave examples, it seemed this aspect was pretty central to the definition of pure sci-fi. However, if you wish to be looser about this restriction, that’s fine. Here’s the basic test, then, for whether a story billed as sci-fi but really isn’t is good or not. If science fiction is essential to the story, then it’s pure sci-fi and this test doesn’t apply. If it’s not, then remove the sci-fi and see if what’s left is still good. So basically, if the sci-fi elements aren’t important, and the non-sci-fi elements aren’t good, then the story is not good. Is that it? More generally, having thought about it more, I really disagree with that Roddenberry idea that a good story can be set anywhere. _The West Wing_ cannot be set in a prison. _The Shawshank Redemption_ cannot be set on a submarine. _The Hunt for Red October_ cannot be set in a mall. _Mallrats_ cannot be set at a football field. _The Replacements_ cannot be set on a starship. And _Star Trek_ cannot be set at the White House. Does that make all of these bad stories? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/56 "2003-08-09T20:29:33Z")
But, what do all those stories have in common? Could a strory about racial discrimination from _Star Trek_ be adapted to a _West wing_ setting? Yes. Could a coming of age plot from _Mall Rats_ be adapted to _Star Trek_? Yes. Could a story about intrigue and misunderstanding and changing social mores be equally at home in _Hunt For Red October_ and _The Practice_ or even _Will and Grace_? Yes. Look at how many (good and bad) shows/movies/plays/musicals share the basic elements of _Romeo and Juliet/West Side Story_. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/57 "2003-08-09T20:40:45Z")
In that case, what’s an example of a story that _can’t_ be put into a different setting? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/58 "2003-08-09T20:49:05Z")
Well, if specifcs are important, we might come up with some. But if we use the general idea, someone can make it fit, I’m sure. For instance: I could design a story around stopping the nuclear reaction of our Sun, going into quite a lot of detail on the hows, and yet a life threatening situation (forest fire?) could be used in a story set in pre Columbian America. The specifics are extremely different, the basic plot, similar. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/59 "2003-08-09T20:59:36Z")
Of course, what I just posted is extremely simplistic. Let’s go further: The antagonist decides he wants to cause death to many. He finds out a way to do it. The protagonsit finds out about and tries to stop him. The antagonist evades capture and begins to implement his plan. Protagonist has to choose between stopping the plan (if he can, let’s assume that in this story, he can), or saving his friend(s)/love interest/family. Climatic scene where a & p confront each other (make it go good or bad for p), denoument. Fits in either setting, depending on details. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [August 9, 2003, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574/60 "2003-08-09T21:31:51Z")
Yes, but that’s the opposite of what I asked for. 🙂 I already accept that there are good stories that fit in multiple settings. We’ve even had some examples in this thread, such as _Wrath of Khan_. What I’m claiming is that not _all_ good stories have to fit in multiple settings. I think your idea of a “story” is so vague as to make the criterion useless. It’s like saying: All stories that have a protagonist and a conflict are the same story, just in different settings. That’s why I asked for _an example of a story that can’t be placed in a different setting_. This story, according to Roddenberry, would necessarily be bad. Unless, according to **RickJay** , it’s science fiction. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-star-trek-movie-franchise-call-it-quits/193574.md?page=4)