# Should the thread on hot to bypass the China firewall have been closed??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 10, 2006, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911 "2006-02-10T20:35:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911/161 "2006-02-19T04:18:54Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Yes please do. Even if you intentionally left the thread open (and link intact) long enough for the person in China to get it, before taking the official stance of the board, just think of what that official stance is - The Straight Dope does not care about opressed people. That’s quite a stretch, but even if it were true, so what? The _Chicago Reader_ is a business, not an experiment in social justice, and like any other business, they’ll do what they think is in their own best interests. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911/162 "2006-02-19T04:30:15Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > The _Chicago Reader_ is a business, not an experiment in social justice, and like any other business, they’ll do what they think is in their own best interests. That’s nice. Perhaps you missed the part where **samclem** explicitly stated he was acting entirely on his own and not undr instructions from the _Reader_? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911/163 "2006-02-19T05:38:09Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > That’s nice. Perhaps you missed the part where **samclem** explicitly stated he was acting entirely on his own and not undr instructions from the _Reader_? Um no. Like I said, the Reader will do what it wants. But the overwraught appeal to “do the moral thing” is simply laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911/164 "2006-02-19T05:38:14Z")
> [@Q.E.D.](#): > > We just want to give Chinese citizens the chance to decide their _own_ morality. Instead, we’re going to help the Chinese government force its own idea of moraility of its citizens? I see your point. However, what I’m trying to say is that we have no right to give the Chinese the “chance to decide their own morality.” The point I’m trying to make (albeit not well, but this is why I tend to stay out of GD) is: Why do WE (as a nation, collectively) have the notion that our system of government is the ideal one, and that we have to contribute (in any way) to “overthrow” any government that isn’t a democracy? And I’ll concede that some people would think that, by NOT following the Chinese government’s ban, we’re condoning their actions. The whole “if you do nothing to stop it, then you’re condoning the action” arguement. As I said, I have my thoughts on this matter, but I can’t quite elucidate clearly enough to show you exactly what I mean. ---
**Author:** ![LucyInDisguise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucyindisguise/32/18064_2.png) [@LucyInDisguise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LucyInDisguise)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911/165 "2006-02-19T13:59:35Z")
> [@Measure for Measure](#): > > Um, no. I don’t think this is an example of the [bystander effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese). True. I was trying to make a point about doing nothing when something should be done. Chose a poor analogy. Sorry 'bout that. > [@](#): > > Quite the opposite actually: **samclem** doesn’t want Chinese authorities to capture a careless clicker … On review, I can’t find anywhere that **samclem** actually said this was his motivation. (It is _possible_ that I missed it.) At any rate, I believe **samclem** needs to be addressing his motives on this – personally. > [@](#): > > (snip) … Like, for example, supporting the development and implemention of [Psiphon](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060213.gtnetcops13/BNStory/Technology//), a software tool being written by University of Toronto researchers. That would be the moral equivalent of “calling the cops”, as opposed to, “posturing to ones friends” … While I was aware of the [Open Net Initiate](http://www.opennetinitiative.net/) and have been following their efforts with great interest, I was unaware of the efforts in Toronto. I \*very much appreciate \* the link. Thank You. I’m looking into how I can give them my support. > [@](#): > > This is revealing. Lucy isn’t really interested in helping the Chinese. 😕 I’ll get back to you on this one in just a second … ya stuck something in the middle of that sentence that needs a comment … > [@](#): > > If she was, she would be aware that this is not a first, second or even third wave assault on Chinese tyranny. True. Went for some dramatic effect. Apparently misunderstood. Okay, back to the other thing … > [@](#): > > This is revealing. Lucy isn’t really interested in helping the Chinese … > [snip] … She’s interested in **the struggle**. She’s interested in doing something -anything- so that she can feel good about herself. _How dare you!_ You do not know me. You know virtually nothing about me. The fact that you presume me to be female demonstrates that fact beyond further comment. How dare you, then, to presume to know my mind, my motives or what I do away from this board! You have absolutely no idea what efforts I put into this struggle against tyranny – No clue as to how much time I’ve invested or how long I’ve been at it. I’m not just _interested_ in the struggle against tyranny, I’m passionate about it. Nothing gets me going quite as fast. Might even say I get fanatical about it. Started with a little armed conflict back in the olden days. Little country. Southeast Asia. Let’s see now … what was that name? Started with a “V” I think … I served my time. I put my ass – physically put my ass in harm’s way to defend freedom and to further the cause of the fight against tyranny. My well earned disabilities precluded continuing my military career, but I have found, over the years, that I don’t have to just sit on the curb and watch and wave as others take up the struggle. There are still ways that I can participate. Do something? Anything? As opposed to making signs and marching in protests? (wait a minute – even **that’s** better than doing _nothing_ …) As opposed to sitting around in a bar bitchin’ and moaning to others that don’t even have a clue or (worse yet) sitting home and watching football on Monday nights? You betcha! Feel good about my self? Yeah, a little. At least I _am_ doing _something_. Anything. Anything I can find that looks like it might help. Wish I could do more. Don’t always make the best choices at first – as more information becomes available to me, I can improve the efficiency of my efforts. Your Toronto link opened up a new avenue for me and many of those I associate with, most of whom were unaware of it as well. Thank you again for that. > [@](#): > > There are lots of activists on the net who want to stick it to the Chinese authorities: I would recommend that the keyboard brigade look into them. I’ve provided one lead. There are rather fewer resources quite like **GQ**. To withdraw this from the 1 billion + in China for feel-good reasons would be irresponsible and enable ignorance – no trivial matter in a country run by censors. Yes there are lots of us out here trying to do something. And not just about the Chinese, but other oppressive governments as well. “keyboard brigade” – Cute. :rolleyes: Lucy ---
**Author:** ![LucyInDisguise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucyindisguise/32/18064_2.png) [@LucyInDisguise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LucyInDisguise)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911/166 "2006-02-19T14:07:05Z")
Sorry, forgot to check the “Show your signature” box so you can see the “She’s a He” link. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911/167 "2006-02-19T16:32:08Z")
> [@samclem](#): > > I’ll have to say it more plainly–I asked no one in a position of authority at the Reader or on the SDMB as to what I should do before I did it. I just did it on my own. But it was my judgement that my employers would have wanted me to close the thread and delete the link. But just MY judgement. Yes I understand and didn’t think it was anything else. You acted within your authority invested in you by the SDMB, and I think you used that authority to assist in the oppression of the people in China - which is my humble O. > [@Superdude](#): > > Oh, please. That’s a hell of an extrapolation, and you know it. - Re: The Straight Dope does not care about oppressed people. Actually if you didn’t take it out of context it in right on the mark. That is IF samclem INTENTIONALLY left the thread open only long enough for the requesting person in China got it, then closed it/deleted the link acting as the SB mod. Again I am talking IF here. IF this happened samclem showed compasion by allowing this person to get the information before it was closed. But this IF also shows that by samclem’s official mod action that the stance of the SDMB is to not assist the oppressed people in China - maybe even in the SDMB Mod handbook, page 96, subsection 3 paragraph 2? The above is total speculation on my part - I don’t know it to be true, nor do I suspect it is, just that it is possiable, and even IF true is something that samclem could not admit to w/o incuring the wrath of the SD/Reader. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911/168 "2006-02-19T22:14:50Z")
> [@LucyInDisguise](#): > > _How dare you!_ You do not know me. You know virtually nothing about me. The fact that you presume me to be female demonstrates that fact beyond further comment. > > How dare you, then, to presume to know my mind, my motives or what I do away from this board! You have absolutely no idea what efforts I put into this struggle against tyranny – No clue as to how much time I’ve invested or how long I’ve been at it. Yup, all true. The same can be said for _your_ comparing _my position_ to that of the alleged onlookers of the murder and rape of [Kitty Genovese](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese) (a story whose mangling makes it border on urban legend, but that’s another matter). Anyway since you’ve retracted your comparison, I will do the same; moreover, I will state that imputing motivation to another is problematic in the best of situations and ludicrous upon a first encounter on a message board. * * * **In the news** Nicolas Kristoff’s column in [Sunday’s NYT](http://select.nytimes.com/2006/02/19/opinion/19kristof.html?hp) (sub req), compares the China policies of Yahoo, Microsoft, Cisco and Google. He thinks Yahoo is a national disgrace while Google got a bum rap. The other 2 characters are in between. Yahoo forwarded information to Chinese authorities that led to prison terms for 3 exercising their human rights. Google still makes its uncensored search engine available, so its latest move tends to expand options in China. Without using that word, Kristoff calls for a **boycott** of Yahoo until it compensates the families of the 3 men that it helped imprison and establishes scholarships for Chinese journalists. Those using My Yahoo may consider a switch to [MyWay](http://home.myway.com/), as I have done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-thread-on-hot-to-bypass-the-china-firewall-have-been-closed/343911.md?page=8)