# Should the Tories dump Cameron? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803 "2007-09-28T13:31:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/1 "2007-09-28T13:31:54Z")
[Since this is politics, I’m puting this in GD rather than the Pit. Mods, feel free to move if you deem it fit.] The Tories are a complete shambles, aren’t they? ‘Dave’ Cameron has come completely unstuck. But with a General Election in the offing, who are they going to put in his place? And how can they replace him? Osborne and Maude are damned by association, Redwood’s a Vulcan. David Davis, last year’s loser? Boris ‘buffoon’ Johnson? Liam ultra-right-wing Fox? Hague the vague? [The Shadow Cabinet](http://www.conservatives.com/tile.do?def=people.shadow.cabinet.page). What a shambles. Democracy only works well when you have an effective opposition. So, who do you see as an effective leader for the Tories for another 4-5 years of opposition? (Absent a major scandal, I really don’t see how the Tories have any hope of winning any election held in the next 2-3 months.) I could go for Boris, purely on the basis of character. He has something of the air of Churchill about him. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/2 "2007-09-28T13:41:47Z")
I don’t think they’d have time to do it even if the general election is next year sometime. Boris Johnson? Are you serious? I’d like to see it happen purely for the comedy angle. ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/3 "2007-09-28T13:49:21Z")
I don’t see it that way at all. I don’t think the Tories have come unstuck, I think they’re just made to look amateurish by a superb government/labour machine which outflanks them at every turn. ‘Dave’ Cameron is their best hope IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/4 "2007-09-28T13:57:26Z")
Die-hard Tory voters won’t vote for Call Me Dave. Hard-core Labour voters will never vote Tory. So it’s the “floating voters” in the middle who make the difference. Call Me Dave and Gorgeous Gordon have similar policies - Brown has appropriated many traditional Tory policies and phrasing, and has deliberately brought Tories into his “Govt of All The Talents”. Most voters still go for “better the devil you know”, meaning they’ll stick with Labour. Michael Howard tried the “right-wing nasty party” approach at the last election, and got thumped. Personal attacks on Brown won’t succeed against someone so stubborn and thick-skinned… there’s not much the Tories could accuse him of that Blair’s team didn’t try last year. 🙂 So I think we’re stuck with Gordon’s Gophers for the time being - I’m not sure there’s anyone who could do a better job than Call Me Dave, but the Tories need to re-position themselves to take advantage of any future Labour catastophe. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/5 "2007-09-28T14:13:49Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] Boris Johnson? Are you serious? I’d like to see it happen purely for the comedy angle. [/QUOTE] Perfectly serious. He’s one smart cookie, and he passes the character test superbly (not that he’s without flaw, mind you). And, as you say, he’d work the comedy angle big time. The Tories are heading for another 4-5 years - or more - of opposition and they need someone who can lead them through that. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/6 "2007-09-28T14:18:41Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] I don’t think they’d have time to do it even if the general election is next year sometime. Boris Johnson? Are you serious? I’d like to see it happen purely for the comedy angle. [/QUOTE] When he said there is a touch of Churchill about him he probably meant the comedy dog advertising insurance. It’s the only thing that makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Nancarrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c37758/32.png) [@Nancarrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nancarrow)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/7 "2007-09-28T15:53:51Z")
I pity our hordes of American dopers who won’t have a clue how amusing that is. Definitely Boris! (It’s a series of ads on the trains and TV and probably radio as well, for Churchill, a car insurance company. They feature a talking animated bulldog. They are of course very annoying. Or would be if I watched TV anymore.) ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/8 "2007-09-28T16:11:33Z")
I think it’s a bit unfair to suggest just changing Cameron will sort out the problems. Bear in mind the history of the Conservatives collapsing post-Maggie / having uncharismatic leaders like Major and Davies / getting a reputation for sleaze (Aitken etc) / facing the slickness of Blair (before he turned into an Iraq-based disaster). As for Boris … he’s obviously great fun at parties. However he doesn’t display any grasp of politics or shrewdness. Consider his gaffes over Liverpool etc. It’s hard to be elected Prime Minister when people are constantly laughing at you. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/9 "2007-09-28T18:42:46Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] When he said there is a touch of Churchill about him he probably meant the comedy dog advertising insurance. [/QUOTE] Damn you man! I was hoping to keep it going a little longer. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/10 "2007-09-28T18:45:36Z")
[QUOTE=glee] I think it’s a bit unfair to suggest just changing Cameron will sort out the problems. [/QUOTE] I disagree: it seems to me that the Tories need a leader who will sort them out, not necessarily one who will return them to power. Ironically, it’s likely they had one in Howard but they didn’t give him the time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/11 "2007-09-28T18:52:19Z")
[QUOTE=Quartz] The Tories are a complete shambles, aren’t they? ‘Dave’ Cameron has come completely unstuck. [/QUOTE] Could we get a bit of background on this? Canadian politics don’t make the news much down here, except during election seasons, and not much then. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/12 "2007-09-28T18:55:27Z")
[QUOTE=glee] I think it’s a bit unfair to suggest just changing Cameron will sort out the problems. Bear in mind the history of the Conservatives collapsing post-Maggie / having uncharismatic leaders like Major and Davies / getting a reputation for sleaze (Aitken etc) / facing the slickness of Blair (before he turned into an Iraq-based disaster). As for Boris … he’s obviously great fun at parties. However he doesn’t display any grasp of politics or shrewdness. Consider his gaffes over Liverpool etc. It’s hard to be elected Prime Minister when people are constantly laughing at you. [/QUOTE] It’s interesting that you feel confident drawing generalizations among different English-speaking countries’ Conservative parties – even though there’s no Conservative International, AFAIK, and Conservatives are on principle more nationalistic than the other parties. I’m not expressing skepticism, mind you; I’m sure the UK and all the British settler states (except for the U.S.) have related, perhaps even intertwined, political histories. But it’s interesting. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/13 "2007-09-28T19:16:59Z")
**BrainGlutton** , if I’m reading you right, you have seriously misinterpreted this thread. Or you’re doing a strange sort of non-comedic whoosh… ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/14 "2007-09-28T20:08:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] It’s interesting that you feel confident drawing generalizations among different English-speaking countries’ Conservative parties – even though there’s no Conservative International, AFAIK, and Conservatives are on principle more nationalistic than the other parties. I’m not expressing skepticism, mind you; I’m sure the UK and all the British settler states (except for the U.S.) have related, perhaps even intertwined, political histories. But it’s interesting. [/QUOTE] It’s interesting that you obviously have no idea what I’m talking about. 😛 All my references are to British politics. Would you like references to who Cameron, Maggie, Aitken, Boris, Major and Davies are? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/15 "2007-09-28T21:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Could we get a bit of background on this? Canadian politics don’t make the news much down here, except during election seasons, and not much then. [/QUOTE] British politics. David “Dave” Cameron is the leader of the Conservative Party. He’s very…pretty, very up with people, and he comes across as left of Labour. eta: He’s keen. That’s his problem. Conservatives shouldn’t be keen. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2007, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/16 "2007-09-28T23:58:03Z")
I would think that Boris Johnson’s out of consideration, [as it would be rather odd to have a Leader of the Opposition who’d rather be Mayor of Greater London](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/7014739.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2007, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/17 "2007-09-29T00:32:02Z")
The disturbing part? He might actually win that. Sadly, lurking behind the buffoonery he’s actually a pretty right-wing guy, so it’s not like we’d be getting a fool but a neutral fool. I think he’s probably the most electable (for both Mayor and PM) MP the Tories have right now, and I hope he never gets near either. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2007, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/18 "2007-09-29T06:41:18Z")
[QUOTE=jjimm] **BrainGlutton** , if I’m reading you right, you have seriously misinterpreted this thread. Or you’re doing a strange sort of non-comedic whoosh… [/QUOTE] I thought it was a pretty hilarious whoosh. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2007, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/19 "2007-09-29T08:00:53Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by_ **e-logic** : > Die-hard Tory voters won’t vote for Call Me Dave. I don’t think that’s right - the die-hard Tory voters will turn out to vote for anyone who isn’t Labour: however big a prat they think he is :dubious: Be careful of underestimating Boris. When he speaks he comes over as bumbling and hesitant but his written stuff - books and articles - are intelligent and well argued, whether or not you agree with his conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2007, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803/20 "2007-09-29T08:47:38Z")
I don’t think it’s a woosh, but it certainly is hilarious. (That said, everything I know about British politics, I learned from the _Now Show_.) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-tories-dump-cameron/420803.md?page=2)