# Should the U.S. give Pt. Roberts to Canada? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 9, 2003, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930 "2003-02-09T19:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/21 "2003-02-10T03:31:05Z")
Btw, forgot to add, if you want to know more about the law with regard to Chamizal, take a look at 22 USCA 277(d)-17. Yeah, I have too much time on my hands. šŸ™‚ ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/22 "2003-02-10T03:32:15Z")
Well, all we need do is wait until continental drift takes Point Roberts north of the 49th parallel, then! BTW, while you picked up on the Panama Canal Zone, the classic example of Congressā€™s power to alienate land held by the United States and not part of a state is the transferrence of the Philippine Islands, a territory of the United States since 1899, to the newly-formed Republic of the Philippines in 1946. I suspect similar examples could also be constructed from the new Micronesian nations that were part of our Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands, though the U.N. trusteeship might confuse the issue in that case. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/23 "2003-02-10T03:38:01Z")
Bah. 54Āŗ 40" or Fight!, thats what _I_ say about the whole matter! ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/24 "2003-02-10T04:19:06Z")
Certainly, a treaty cannot contravene the Constitution. The government, for example, cannot enforce a treaty which would require it to abridge our freedom of speech. My intent in citing the Supremacy Clause was to argue that, although a state cannot take _itself_ out of the Union, the more powerful federal government can kick out a small part of a state. If I were the solicitor general, my argument defending the Point Roberts Treaty would be: (1) Clearly the federal government can alienate land not belonging to a stateā€“we conferred independence on the Philippines, retroceded the Canal Zone to Panama, ceded part of the Louisiana Purchase to Canada via the Convention of 1818, and so forth. (2) Clearly also the federal government can resolve boundary disputes, even when the land involved **is** part of a state. We have the Webster-Ashburton treaty settling the border of Maine, and the Chamizal Treaty. In the Chamizal case, the land was settled by people believing they were living in the United States and in Texas, and the United States, prior to the treaty, had been defending that claim. Nevertheless, the land was ceded. (3) Itā€™s but a small jump, then, to cede land belonging to a state for other reasons. If the federal government can cede land to settle a boundary dispute, surely it can do so to further the convenience of the people living there, so that they can order pizzas and walk to school. 'Tis but a small distinction from Chamizal. In the unlikely event that my amateur lawyering lost the case ā˜¹ , we could still cede Point Roberts by constitutional amendment. šŸ™‚ So I think the more fruitful argument is not **can** we cede Point Roberts but **should** we. But I donā€™t know jack about Point Roberts, so I donā€™t have much to say about that. ---
**Author:** ![ataraxy22](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ataraxy22/32/307_2.png) [@ataraxy22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ataraxy22)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/25 "2003-02-10T04:24:19Z")
Pt. Roberts should become an independent and soverign nation. Once Angle Inlet becomes independent too, they could ally, and world conquest would be theirs. Hmm, maybe they should be stopped now? ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/26 "2003-02-10T04:49:50Z")
While weā€™re at it, letā€™s make all of the Eastern Shore part of Maryland, and give Wisconsin the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. And letā€™s lop off those damn panhandles. Texas, Nebraska, and Oklahoma can just give those up. Idaho, too. Except nobody wants those panhandles, do they? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/27 "2003-02-10T04:57:58Z")
Not only should all of the Eastern Shore be a part of Maryland - Maryland, West Virginia, Delaware and Virginia should join together into one giant super state. The Dakotas and the Carolinas should fuse, since thereā€™s no point in having two of them. New Hampshire, Massachusetts, Vermont, Maine, Connecticut, and Rhode Island should become the giant state of New England. Oregon divied up between Washington and California. Sell Oklahoma to the Japanese for some extra cash to pay down the debt with. ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/28 "2003-02-10T05:04:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by CrankyAsAnOldMan \* > **While weā€™re at it, letā€™s make all of the Eastern Shore part of Maryland, and give Wisconsin the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. > ā€¦** The UP was given to us as as part of the settlement of the little-known (though you may know) [Toledo War](http://wiwi.essortment.com/toledowar_rzxq.htm) between us and the barbaric monsters of Ohio. (State motto: Drive through us to get to Michigan!). Do you really want to open up old wounds again? ā€œNever Forget!ā€ is our mottoā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![schplebordnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/91b2a8/32.png) [@schplebordnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schplebordnik)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/29 "2003-02-10T05:39:26Z")
While weā€™re at it, we need to connect up the Northwest Angle with Minnesota, so Canada should just cede Manitoba to the US. Seems like a fair swap. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/30 "2003-02-10T13:09:59Z")
> [@](#): > > So I think the more fruitful argument is not **can** we cede Point Roberts but **should** we. This is actually what I was asking. Thanks for posting it, as I havenā€™t had coffee and my fingers and brain arenā€™t working right yet. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/31 "2003-02-10T14:29:35Z")
Weā€™ve already had one example (W. Va) where a state was ā€œsplitā€ (although the legality of it was disputed by **Neurotik** ). But what about Maine? Maine was, IIRC, part of Massachusettes until 1820, was it not? And it was split off into another state. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/32 "2003-02-10T15:16:38Z")
Ah, but was it done so with Massachusettsā€™ permission? Because if Massachusetts had given permission for Maine to be made its own state, then it would be legal. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/33 "2003-02-10T16:12:26Z")
Not meaning to be obstructive or obnoxious here, Johnny, but this is what popped into my head when I read the OP. ā€œShould Great Britain give Ulster to Ireland?ā€ > [@](#): > > \*Iā€™m not suggesting that the residents be kept prisoner there. They can become \<\< Irish \>\> citizens, become resident aliens, or they can move. > [@](#): > > What about the people living there, who may not want to be \<\< Irish \>\>? How about this? As part of the deal any \<\< British \>\> citizen who is a resident of \<\< Ulster \>\> would be offered a choice of accepting \<\< Irish \>\> citizenship, or be automatically given resident-alien status. They would be able to work in \<\< Ulster-now-as-part-of-Ireland \>\> and their children could attend \<\< Ulster-now-as-part-of-Ireland \>\> schools. They would be entitled to all of the benefits of Irish residence/citizenship.\* A government thatā€™s of-the-people, for-the-people, and by-the-people ought to consult the people before making a change like this, doncha think? šŸ˜‰ You folks are all so busy discussing territorial relations between American states that youā€™re forgetting that weā€™re talking about two different sovereign nations here. You canā€™t just break off a chunk of one nation and sign it over to another nation. Poland and Eastern Europe was divvied up post-WWII. Was that a Good Thing? [http://www.polishworld.com/polemb/english/poland\_history.html](http://www.polishworld.com/polemb/english/poland_history.html) > [@](#): > > With the defeat of Germany in sight Allied leaders met at a series of conferences ā€” Teheran, Yalta, Potsdam ā€” to decide the shape of post-war Europe. It was decided to move Polandā€™s boundaries westward. This resulted in major relocations of population where Germans were moved out of western Poland and East Prussia to be replaced with Polish population from the east. Those folks werenā€™t given much of a choiceā€“move. The Alsace goes back and forth between Germany and France. [http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/alsace\_history.asp](http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/section/alsace_history.asp) 870ā€“German 1648ā€“French. 1871ā€“German. 1918ā€“French. 1940ā€“German. 1945ā€“French. It gives me a headache just to read itā€“I canā€™t imagine what it must be like to live there. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/34 "2003-02-10T17:41:52Z")
**DDG** : I donā€™t know enough about the Troubles to discuss them, but I think this is different. (For example, there arenā€™t people killing each other over Pt. Roberts.) So Iā€™d rather not bring No. Ireland into it. In any case, if all parties are agreeable, why not? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/35 "2003-02-10T17:45:34Z")
Well, if all parties are agreeable, then sure. But all parties needs to include Canada, British Columbia, the US, Washington state, the government of Pt. Roberts and every single person in Pt. Roberts. Otherwise, itā€™s a no go. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/36 "2003-02-10T17:49:21Z")
Well, sure, we can have a conversation about ā€˜shouldā€™ we give it away, I just thought that answering the threshold question of whether we _can_ do so might be a good place to start. Carry on! ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/37 "2003-02-10T18:14:54Z")
All the dopers from the major lakeside city of Cleveland, Connecticut, should be aware of other cessions of land by the states to the Federal government. Seems to me I remember something about the Northwest Ordinance, too. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/38 "2003-02-10T18:33:40Z")
I didnā€™t know folks were forced to live in such depravation, away from schooling and pizza? If folks donā€™t like it there can move, there is no need to give it to Canada, there is no problem. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/39 "2003-02-10T18:37:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Ah, but was it done so with Massachusettsā€™ permission? Because if Massachusetts had given permission for Maine to be made its own state, then it would be legal. \*\* Agreed, and itā€™s clear from Article IV of the Constitution that you need to have the permission of the state. Now assume Washington gave permission to the feds to give Point Roberts to the Canadians. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![eponymous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e0b2c6/32.png) [@eponymous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eponymous)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2003, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930/40 "2003-02-10T18:49:57Z")
Iā€™ve actually been to Pt. Roberts myself. Personally, I think itā€™s kind of neat that thereā€™s a place in the US (along with the Northwest Angle of Minnesota) that the only way one can get to it by land is by first going through another country. But I guess Iā€™m a geek when it comes to such geographic oddities šŸ™‚ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-give-pt-roberts-to-canada/153930.md?page=3)