# Should the U.S. Military allow Humanist/Secularist/Atheist chaplains? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801 "2016-12-15T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/1 "2016-12-15T19:32:28Z")
I found an interesting article on [_Wondering Eagle_](https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/an-overview-of-the-effort-to-have-secularisthumanistatheist-chaplains-in-the-united-states-military-why-this-christian-supports-that-endeavor/) about the ongoing effort to allow Secular/Humanist/Atheist chaplains in the U.S. Military. Apparently many major universities have Humanist chaplains, including U.S.C., Harvard, Yale, American, New York and Rutgers. It seems that they fulfill a need, and may be provide a balance: For example(according to the article) > [@](#): > > …there are 12,360 active duty military personnel who are Southern Baptist and 12,764 military personnel who are atheist. The Southern Baptist Convention has 437 chaplains to serve and help those 12,360 troops. Today there are 0 atheist chaplains to help atheist troops. I know that when I was in the military a non-secular shoulder to lean on might have helped once in a while…so what’s the hold-up? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/2 "2016-12-15T19:39:02Z")
How can you have an atheist chaplain? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/3 "2016-12-15T19:42:19Z")
It’s a silly name, but the role is meaningful: a counsellor, confidante, sympathetic listener, and moral advisor. Call him a psychologist if you have to, but an atheist would be well-placed to help guide other atheists through their anxieties. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/4 "2016-12-15T19:43:06Z")
Atheist chaplain. Who knew? From my time in the military, the chaplains were a royal pain in the neck, finding issues where non-existed. Do we really need 500 more hand holders? Isn’t this what friends, shipmates and mentors are for? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/5 "2016-12-15T19:56:51Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It’s a silly name, but the role is meaningful: a counsellor, confidante, sympathetic listener, and moral advisor. > > Call him a psychologist if you have to, but an atheist would be well-placed to help guide other atheists through their anxieties. So, not really a chaplain at all, but simply a psychologist or counselor, both of which the military already has. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/6 "2016-12-15T19:58:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How can you have an atheist chaplain? If a Southern Baptist and/or a Muslim chaplain can council a Jewish soldier, why couldn’t a Humanist/ Atheist chaplain? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/7 "2016-12-15T20:02:30Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > If a Southern Baptist and/or a Muslim chaplain can council a Jewish soldier, why couldn’t a Humanist/ Atheist chaplain? Because I would assume, as I did when I was in the military, that I would go to a chaplain in order to get spiritual guidance. How an atheist chaplain can offer spiritual guidance is beyond me. that’s why if I DIDN’T want spiritual guidance, which I wouldn’t want if I was an atheist, I wouldn’t go to a chaplain, but to a counselor or psychologist. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/8 "2016-12-15T20:08:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So, not really a chaplain at all, but simply a psychologist or counselor, both of which the military already has. It sounds like chaplains are provided by outside groups (just guessing from the previous posts), and that what you talk about with or that you talked to a chaplain doesn’t go on your record. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/9 "2016-12-15T20:08:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Because I would assume, as I did when I was in the military, that I would go to a chaplain in order to get spiritual guidance. How an atheist chaplain can offer spiritual guidance is beyond me. that’s why if I DIDN’T want spiritual guidance, which I wouldn’t want if I was an atheist, I wouldn’t go to a chaplain, but to a counselor or psychologist. The counselors and psychologists are not usually available on the frontlines the way chaplains are, and the chaplains are trained in performing religious services for religions they don’t personally believe in. if there is no problem with a Jewish chaplain performing a Baptist service, why should there be a problem with a Humanist chaplain doing the same thing? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/10 "2016-12-15T20:11:58Z")
> [@Yllaria](#): > > It sounds like chaplains are provided by outside groups (just guessing from the previous posts), and that what you talk about with or that you talked to a chaplain doesn’t go on your record. Most (I don’t know if all) chaplains are military officers. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/11 "2016-12-15T20:15:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The counselors and psychologists are not usually available on the frontlines the way chaplains are, and the chaplains are trained in performing religious services for religions they don’t personally believe in. if there is no problem with a Jewish chaplain performing a Baptist service, why should there be a problem with a Humanist chaplain doing the same thing? Do Jewish chaplains perform Baptist services? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/12 "2016-12-15T20:16:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Most (I don’t know if all) chaplains are military officers. Are there any other military positions that exclude atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/13 "2016-12-15T20:21:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Are there any other military positions that exclude atheists? My post was a reply to someone who thought chaplains were provided by outside groups, not a reason to exclude atheists. I just don’t see how a spiritual counselor and religious leader can be an atheist. If the troops want a non-spiritual counselor that is not a religious leader, the military already has that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/14 "2016-12-15T20:23:03Z")
I think chaplains are unnecessary in the military (though I’ll admit that as a non-religious veteran, I might be biased) and should be phased out. We didn’t have them on the submarine (volunteer religious leaders led services for those sailors interested) and no one that I know of expressed any dismay at the lack. As far as the chaplains on base, from what I heard from other sailors, their chief function seemed to be to diplomatically say “quit complaining and get back to work”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/15 "2016-12-15T20:26:55Z")
I agree with what others have said. If you’re looking for religious counseling, you’re not going to get it from an atheist “chaplain” (or counselor). If you’re looking for general non-religious counseling, you can get it from a religious chaplain. So I don’t see a need for specifically atheist counselors. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/16 "2016-12-15T20:26:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If the troops want a non-spiritual counselor that is not a religious leader, the military already has that. Out there with the troops, on the frontlines? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/17 "2016-12-15T20:28:53Z")
To be honest, the only time I ever saw a chaplain during my enlistment was during the Invocation that we were forced to listen to before big ceremonies. I’ve never even been to a base chapel outside of basic training. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/18 "2016-12-15T20:30:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Out there with the troops, on the frontlines? I don’t think chaplains are driving around in convoys or outside the wire missions if that’s what you mean. But if not, just have forward deployed counselors or psychologists, if we don’t already have them. No need to call them chaplains. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/19 "2016-12-15T20:35:41Z")
[It looks like this was discussed previously a few years ago in this forum.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=698249) It’s not that long a read, and some reason(s) to have/not have them are brought up. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2016, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/20 "2016-12-15T21:20:46Z")
Not too bad of a thread. Not sure much has changed since then. I did do a quick search on Google and, admittedly just picked the first link, for Army psychologists and it seems like they do get deployed to Iraq and such, as I suspected. Here’s a story about one such guy: [link](http://www.apa.org/monitor/2008/12/deployment.aspx) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=2)