# Should the U.S. Military allow Humanist/Secularist/Atheist chaplains? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801 "2016-12-15T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/41 "2016-12-16T03:39:42Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What’s the worst that could happen, the full mass police get after him? [This guy shows up at your door](http://chrisman1991.deviantart.com/art/Hellsing-Ultimate-8-screenshot-AA-Monster-of-God-1-440600896). ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/42 "2016-12-16T03:43:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > No disrespect to Dewey Finn, but I doubt that non-Catholic chaplains can perform the full Catholic services, as mentioned by previous posters. **I’m** talking about spiritual advice which is being said that only ‘believers’ can deliver. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/43 "2016-12-16T03:49:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I don’t necessarily agree with what you are saying, but if I did, I fail to see how an already existing military psychologist or counselor could not offer the same “outsider” view of one’s religion. Because those professions don’t have a professional grounding in spirituality. Someone coming out of a good religious studies program is going to have a deep understanding of the psychology of religion and spirituality, the history and context of various religions, and a set of anecdotes, quotes, rituals and parables grounded in spirituality. They’ll have also spent a great deal of time around and had much lively discussion with deep religious thinkers, giving them a familiarity with these types of questions that a random psychologist won’t have. I’m fine questioning the concept of chaplains on a whole, but if chaplains exist there is no reason why an atheist with religious trainings and a genuine desire to provide this type of care can’t do the job. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/44 "2016-12-16T03:51:34Z")
And again I ask what would an atheist chaplain say to someone who asked “What is God’s plan for me?” The only response so far has been “God doesn’t exist, so stop worrying about it” which to me doesn’t seem like a great answer to someone with spiritual questions about the nature of God and man. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/45 "2016-12-16T03:53:51Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Because those professions don’t have a professional grounding in spirituality. Someone coming out of a good religious studies program is going to have a deep understanding of the psychology of religion and spirituality, the history and context of various religions, and a set of anecdotes, quotes, rituals and parables grounded in spirituality. They’ll have also spent a great deal of time around and had much lively discussion with deep religious thinkers, giving them a familiarity with these types of questions that a random psychologist won’t have. > > I’m fine questioning the concept of chaplains on a whole, but if chaplains exist there is no reason why an atheist with religious trainings and a genuine desire to provide this type of care can’t do the job. Why would an atheist have a professional grounding in something they don’t even believe in? Isn’t that like someone spending years to have a professional grounding in unicorns and mermaids? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/46 "2016-12-16T04:04:12Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What’s the worst that could happen, the full mass police get after him? :rolleyes: The Mass (or at least the Eucharist) wouldn’t be valid in the eyes of the Church and most probably the Catholic servicemembers the chaplain is supposed to be serving. I was raised Catholic. I am not religious at all any longer. But I respect the internal beliefs enough to not try to “go through the motions” when I’m forced to attend Mass (weddings and funerals, mostly). ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/47 "2016-12-16T04:15:01Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The only response so far has been “God doesn’t exist, so stop worrying about it” which to me doesn’t seem like a great answer to someone with spiritual questions about the nature of God and man. “Mr. Spiritual Advisor, why did the tooth fairy not take my tooth I left under my pillow last night? Does she only visit when I’m at my parent’s house?” I guess you could go into a lot of malarkey about tooth fairies and how they work, or you could just tell him it was his parents putting money under his pillow all along. See, here is the thing. You are assuming the person seeking help won’t get that help by being told the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/48 "2016-12-16T04:19:41Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > “Mr. Spiritual Advisor, why did the tooth fairy not take my tooth I left under my pillow last night? Does she only visit when I’m at my parent’s house?” I guess you could go into a lot of malarkey about tooth fairies and how they work, or you could just tell him it was his parents putting money under his pillow all along. See, here is the thing. You are assuming the person seeking help won’t get that help by being told the truth. You may equate someone’s beliefs in God or Jesus or Buddha or Allah to believing in the tooth fairy, but I doubt that someone who is seeking spiritual comfort will take solace in the comparison. I mean, really? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/49 "2016-12-16T04:30:55Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > You may equate someone’s beliefs in God or Jesus or Buddha or Allah to believing in the tooth fairy, … I’m pretty sure most people who are Christians rank Ganesha and the Tooth Fairy in the same category with the reverse being true as well. That’s the point. What qualifications does a person have to give spiritual advice if they believe the other person’s religion can’t possibly be true? Unless you can tell me that a Catholic priest will say that Ganesha is just as likely to be true as Jesus. I can tell you categorically that as an atheist, I can say both are as likely to be true as the other one. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/50 "2016-12-16T04:42:55Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Unless you can tell me that a Catholic priest will say that Ganesha is just as likely to be true as Jesus. And again I say, I doubt a Catholic will go to a Hindu chaplain for spiritual advice about his or her Catholic faith. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/51 "2016-12-16T05:13:35Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I’m pretty sure most people who are Christians rank Ganesha and the Tooth Fairy in the same category with the reverse being true as well. That’s the point. What qualifications does a person have to give spiritual advice if they believe the other person’s religion can’t possibly be true? Unless you can tell me that a Catholic priest will say that Ganesha is just as likely to be true as Jesus. I can tell you categorically that as an atheist, I can say both are as likely to be true as the other one. You should consider that the thinking of religious believers may not be as binary and simplistic as yours. And you should also consider that there may be atheists whose thinking is not as binary and simplistic as yours. And they may be better suited to atheist chaplaincy than you might be. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/52 "2016-12-16T05:28:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And again I ask what would an atheist chaplain say to someone who asked “What is God’s plan for me?” The only response so far has been “God doesn’t exist, so stop worrying about it” which to me doesn’t seem like a great answer to someone with spiritual questions about the nature of God and man. I don’t know that that’s a valid sort of complaint/question? The Chaplain is going to, inevitably, have training in pastoral care and some basic idea of comparative religion, and is probably going to be able to help that person figure out the answer to that question. I mean, if you go to some Christian minister and ask “What’s God’s plan for me?”, he’s probably not going to give you some detailed life plan. “Well, at 30, God wants you to invest in a diverse portfolio and start considering home ownership. He also wants you to go back to school and finish your degree.” The Christian minister is, through his or her experiences and training, going to try to draw out from the questioner what’s bothering the questioner, and what the questioner thinks is God’s plan for them, and then is going to try to give advice based on that that will soothe the questioner’s anxieties and help give them comfort, as well as try to encourage positive behavior and help the questioner overcome self destructive or harmful behavior. An atheist clergyman would be able to do that just as well as a Christian clergyman. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/53 "2016-12-16T05:34:26Z")
I’ll also say, generally, that if you’re not willing or able to minister to a large group of people with diverse beliefs, some of which are different than yours or that you think are wrong, and still respect those people and help them as best as you can within their belief contexts, then the Chaplain Corps probably isn’t for you. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/54 "2016-12-16T06:24:09Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > I’ll also say, generally, that if you’re not willing or able to minister to a large group of people with diverse beliefs, some of which are different than yours or that you think are wrong, and still respect those people and help them as best as you can within their belief contexts, then the Chaplain Corps probably isn’t for you. More to the point: if a person isn’t willing or able to do so, then the Chaplaincy Corps considers them not qualified for said corps. By the way, I like the way you put that–“help them as best as you can within their belief contexts”. That’s a pretty good summation of the mission. Another by the way, if you listen to [_Mormon Matters_](http://www.mormonmatters.org/2013/02/21/155-156-lds-military-chaplains/), episodes 155 and 156, you can hear the experience one LDS military chaplain had when he was assigned as the Protestant pastor for the base’s Protestant chapel. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/55 "2016-12-16T07:01:14Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > You should consider that the thinking of religious believers may not be as binary and simplistic as yours. I don’t think it is binary to expect a Catholic priest to not believe in Ganesha or to have any expectation that he does. How do you expect that someone who doesn’t believe in another’s religion to help them? I can ask, “What do you think Ganesha would want you to do?”, as well as the next guy. My personal belief has no bearing on the question. My quip about whether god(s) exist was just that. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/56 "2016-12-16T08:24:44Z")
Of course an atheist could be a chaplain. The job is not about converting people to your own viewpoint, in any case. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 9:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/57 "2016-12-16T09:42:42Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I don’t think it is binary to expect a Catholic priest to not believe in Ganesha or to have any expectation that he does. How do you expect that someone who doesn’t believe in another’s religion to help them? I can ask, “What do you think Ganesha would want you to do?”, as well as the next guy. My personal belief has no bearing on the question. My quip about whether god(s) exist was just that. What’s binary is assuming that someone who doesn’t belief in Ganesha must put belief in Ganesha in the same category as belief in the tooth fairy. Most people are capable of a greater degree of nuance than that. Those who aren’t, be they theist or atheist, are probably not suited to chaplaincy work. Chaplains provide pastoral care to people of all beliefs and none. If someone is looking for a form of support that can only be provided by someone whose beliefs and practices substantially accord with his, the pastoral care that a chaplain from another tradition can provide may be limited to putting him in touch with the person that he requires, but the bulk of chaplaincy work is not like that. There is a broad range of pastoral care and support that can be offered and accepted without the chaplain and the client agreeing on every point of belief. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/58 "2016-12-16T11:37:16Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > And again I ask what would an atheist chaplain say to someone who asked “What is God’s plan for me?” The only response so far has been “God doesn’t exist, so stop worrying about it” which to me doesn’t seem like a great answer to someone with spiritual questions about the nature of God and man. Few religious chaplains are going to have a response for “What is God’s plan for me?”. And, to the extent that their answer is grounded in their particular faith, it is unlikely to be relevant to any serviceperson not of their faith. The answer provided by a Fundamentalist Christian chaplain of the Franklin (not Billy) Graham persuasion is likely to be quite different than the response by a liberal Episcopalian or Catholic chaplain. Are you suggesting that every unit include chaplains matching every denomination of every person in the unit? If not, I am not sure that understand all the push-back I see in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/59 "2016-12-16T11:48:46Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Can you explain the answer that chaplain would give to a troop asking “What is God’s plan for me?” “What do you feel is the right answer to that question?” I know that sounds awfully trite and useless, but counselling isn’t about delivering ready-made answers. It’s significantly about allowing a person to open up, understand themself and their own thoughts and feelings, and come to terms with the complexities of being alive. Years ago, I attended a ‘listening’ course as part of a counselling function (I am not a counsellor by profession). The overwhelmingly common misconception for everyone was that counselling and listening would be about _hearing the problem, solving it, then delivering the answer_. It really isn’t - and that is actually often completely unhelpful. A person with a complex problem that is troubling them is not likely to accept a quick and straightforward “Oh, well, in that case, just do X” answer, even if one could be given. People want to know their problems are understood and that they are being heard. Often the most helpful thing you can do with a person relating a problem is keep your mouth shut and let them talk. The second most helpful is, by asking gently-probing questions, to agree and acknowledge that _there really is a problem_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2016, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/60 "2016-12-16T11:50:24Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > :rolleyes: > > The Mass (or at least the Eucharist) wouldn’t be valid in the eyes of the Church and most probably the Catholic servicemembers the chaplain is supposed to be serving. The chaplain is there _to comfort the soldiers_. If they want a mass and a Catholic chaplain isn’t available and they’re okay with a substitute, fine. The dimensions of the fuck I give about what the RCC thinks about this copyright violation or whatever is best expressed in Angstroms. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=4)