# Should the U.S. Military allow Humanist/Secularist/Atheist chaplains? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801 "2016-12-15T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/101 "2016-12-19T16:10:48Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Again, the Armed Forces DO provide secular psychologists and therapists and counselors for servicemen who want them. > > Why the need to call them “chaplains”? 1. Do they provide them out in the field at the same rate they provide chaplains? 2. Will they have the same level of confidentiality as they would with chaplains? ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/102 "2016-12-19T16:26:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Again, the Armed Forces DO provide secular psychologists and therapists and counselors for servicemen who want them. > > Why the need to call them “chaplains”? Chaplains don’t just provide counselling as far as mental health. They can recommend a compassionate posting, ask for someone to be returned home early for personal reasons and also provide advice for Comd based on general troop morale (because they are usually around). Also, there is no perceived stigma in asking for a padre. It can be for mental health or a bunch of other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/103 "2016-12-19T16:30:16Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Again, the Armed Forces DO provide secular psychologists and therapists and counselors for servicemen who want them. > > Why the need to call them “chaplains”? The same reason that religious people want chaplains in addition to psychologists and therapists: they provide different services. Also, chaplains is just jargon for the purposes of this discussion. The military won’t want to make a new code just for “atheists chaplains” simply because calling them chaplains doesn’t make sense in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/104 "2016-12-19T18:14:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Do they provide them out in the field at the same rate they provide chaplains? > 2. Will they have the same level of confidentiality as they would with chaplains? If the answer to both of these questions is “Yes” would it change your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/105 "2016-12-19T18:18:11Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > If a person has a ‘spiritual’ crisis about whether to kill people it isn’t likely because god told him not to. It is more likely because he doesn’t want to as that tends to be the default human programming on such things. Anyone can pick portions of the bible (insert holey text of choice) and find justifications to kill others. The discussion is really about over-riding their innate desire to not do things that harm others. That’s the root of why they are seeking guidance and a psychologist should do just fine answering those sorts of questions without resorting to fairy shit. And you would be happy if atheist chaplains provided this exact same advice to troops in the field? Come on :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/106 "2016-12-19T18:21:29Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > Also, chaplains is just jargon for the purposes of this discussion. The military won’t want to make a new code just for “atheists chaplains” simply because calling them chaplains doesn’t make sense in this case. But that’s just it. Those arguing ‘for’ atheist chaplains are not looking to ensure that atheist troops receive secular counseling or other psychological treatment by professionals. They actually want people in the military labeled “Atheist Chaplain” for whatever reason even though there are already better solutions available in the military, but they don’t have the title “Atheist Chaplain” so I guess they are not good enough :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/107 "2016-12-19T18:24:43Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If the answer to both of these questions is “Yes” would it change your opinion? It would make me lean that way…if there weren’t a perception problem with others(especially supervisors) finding out you are going to a psychiatrist-it could become a problem come promotion time. There isn’t the same stigma when it comes to talking to the chaplain. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/108 "2016-12-19T18:30:17Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But that’s just it. Those arguing ‘for’ atheist chaplains are not looking to ensure that atheist troops receive secular counseling or other psychological treatment by professionals. They actually want people in the military labeled “Atheist Chaplain” for whatever reason even though there are already better solutions available in the military, but they don’t have the title “Atheist Chaplain” so I guess they are not good enough :rolleyes: You keep saying “for whatever reason” as if no reasons have been given, when really the problem is you are disinclined to allow atheist chaplains, reasons be damned. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/109 "2016-12-19T18:49:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You keep saying “for whatever reason” as if no reasons have been given, when really the problem is you are disinclined to allow atheist chaplains, reasons be damned. I have seen no reason that a person who offers secular advice to military troops NEEDS to be called an “Atheist Chaplain” other than “Well, other religions have them” And I am certain that you are highly overstating the amount of “stigma” visiting a psychologist has during “promotion time” ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/110 "2016-12-19T18:52:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > But that’s just it. Those arguing ‘for’ atheist chaplains are not looking to ensure that atheist troops receive secular counseling or other psychological treatment by professionals. They actually want people in the military labeled “Atheist Chaplain” for whatever reason even though there are already better solutions available in the military, but they don’t have the title “Atheist Chaplain” so I guess they are not good enough :rolleyes: But an “atheist chaplain” would not be performing the same tasks as a psychologist, etc. anymore than a theistic chaplain right now is performing the same tasks as a psychologist, etc. Atheists are asking for an officer to provide the same services as a theistic chaplain, just from an atheistic point of view as opposed to a specific theistic one. ---
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/111 "2016-12-19T18:55:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I have seen no reason that a person who offers secular advice to military troops NEEDS to be called an “Atheist Chaplain” other than “Well, other religions have them” > > And I am certain that you are highly overstating the amount of “stigma” visiting a psychologist has during “promotion time” I can tell you from reports I have heard from servicemen and reports about issues of mental health in the military that there very much is a stigma against seeking psychological help. It is arguably worse than it is in the general public. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/112 "2016-12-19T18:55:44Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I have seen no reason that a person who offers secular advice to military troops NEEDS to be called an “Atheist Chaplain” other than “Well, other religions have them” > > And I am certain that you are highly overstating the amount of “stigma” visiting a psychologist has during “promotion time” Been there, done that, seen what happens. There is _definitely_ more stigma attached to seeing a psychiatrist than there is to seeing a chaplain. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/113 "2016-12-19T19:07:18Z")
> [@HumbleThinker](#): > > Atheists are asking for an officer to provide the same services as a theistic chaplain, just from an atheistic point of view as opposed to a specific theistic one. In your view, what services would an atheistic chaplain provide that are not already covered by existing personnel? Please be specific. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/114 "2016-12-19T19:11:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Been there, done that, seen what happens. There is _definitely_ more stigma attached to seeing a psychiatrist than there is to seeing a chaplain. Could you be a little more specific, not with names or whatever of course, but what have you seen happen? In my case, enlisted in the AF, that type of stuff never even comes up during promotions, it’s a straight numbers game. Score enough points to put you over the cutoff, you get promoted - medical history is no where to be found in the process. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/115 "2016-12-19T19:12:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > In your view, what services would an atheistic chaplain provide that are not already covered by existing personnel? Please be specific. Would you be asking this question if Jew or Southern Baptists weren’t allowed as chaplains and were fighting to be allowed in? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/116 "2016-12-19T19:12:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Been there, done that, seen what happens. There is _definitely_ more stigma attached to seeing a psychiatrist than there is to seeing a chaplain. What happened? ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/117 "2016-12-19T19:16:09Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Do Catholic troops go to Hindu chaplains for spiritual advice? Do Christian troops in general go to Hindu or Buddhist or Scientology chaplains for spiritual advice? You said it yourself that there is only one position available for Chaplain. > [@](#): > > For instance, on such and such deployment, there is only one manning position for a chaplain, and low and behold, it’s an atheist chaplain. Can you explain the answer that chaplain would give to a troop asking “What is God’s plan for me?” If _that_ position is filled by a Buddhist chaplain, then how exactly is he supposed to provide spiritual guidance for a Catholic? I’ll answer for you: the same way an atheist chaplain would! Chaplains are cross-trained in all faiths and able to take care of soldiers regardless of religious affiliation. An atheist chaplain would have to learn to perform all the same services that a religious one would. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/118 "2016-12-19T19:26:18Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > In your view, what services would an atheistic chaplain provide that are not already covered by existing personnel? Please be specific. Immediate 24/7, on call marital counseling. How’s that for specific? The waiting list to see a psychiatrist or counselor is ridiculous, if you can even get on that list at all! It’s like pulling teeth to get some of my soldiers into necessary alcohol and drug abuse counseling. But guess what, they can always go see a chaplain. There’s never a waiting list, a sign up sheet or an approval process. They simply go see the chaplain and talk about whatever is bothering them. And there is always a chaplain on call. If I had a soldier fighting with his wife on Saturday night, good luck getting a counselor to show up at their house. I could get a chaplain there to talk to them, though. Atheist, Catholic or Hindu… wouldn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/119 "2016-12-19T19:29:47Z")
I’ve had friends that said they were passed up for promotion, and even stopped from reenlisting, because they had something in their files about seeking psychiatric help. Now this may not constitute verifiable evidence to you, but I have yet to hear about anyone that got in trouble in the military for seeing a chaplain. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/120 "2016-12-19T19:32:46Z")
Basically the question shouldn’t be “Why allow it?” It should be “Why _not_ allow it?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=7)