# Should the U.S. Military allow Humanist/Secularist/Atheist chaplains? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801 "2016-12-15T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![HumbleThinker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@HumbleThinker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HumbleThinker)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/121 "2016-12-19T19:54:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > In your view, what services would an atheistic chaplain provide that are not already covered by existing personnel? Please be specific. The same services that theistic chaplains provide that psychologists and others do not sans the connection to a deity. Just as a theistic person would go to a psychologist for mental assistance instead of his chaplain, an atheistic person would go to his chaplain for “spiritual” services instead of their psychologist. Chaplains can provide moral and ethical advice, work out tough philosophical troubles they are having, connect on a more personal level as opposed to the professional distance required for a psychologist, connect a service member to a like-minded community, hold services, etc. This is the same for both religious and non-religious chaplains outside of the military. And as a Jewish member would generally prefer to see a Jewish chaplain instead of a Muslim or Christian one, an atheist service member would prefer to see an atheist chaplain. Atheism is not simply a lack of “spiritual” needs; it is a lack of theistic spiritual needs. There are still those same existential threats that need more than just a scientific, psychological approach to address that leads Christians to seek out a chaplain as well as a psychologist. Chaplains also hold a special status; they are non-combatants under the Geneva Convention and anything you tell them is protected by confidentiality as opposed to a military psychologist. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/122 "2016-12-19T20:00:52Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I agree. I’m just taking the opposite approach saying that removing all chaplains doesn’t infringe anyone’s rights. Ah! My apologies; I was unclear. Personally, I would prefer it if there were no official, government-paid, military chaplains, with offices on military bases, all paid for by our taxes. I suggest it’s a (minor) violation of the establishment clause. But, yeah, that and “In God We Trust” on the coins: good effing luck getting rid of them. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/123 "2016-12-19T20:32:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would you be asking this question if Jew or Southern Baptists weren’t allowed as chaplains and were fighting to be allowed in? Probably not, because I don’t believe psychologists in the military provide Jewish or Southern Baptist religious counseling and guidance. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/124 "2016-12-19T20:34:46Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’ve had friends that said they were passed up for promotion, and even stopped from reenlisting, because they had something in their files about seeking psychiatric help. Now this may not constitute verifiable evidence to you, but I have yet to hear about anyone that got in trouble in the military for seeing a chaplain. So when you said “Been there, done that, seen what happens” you meant you haven’t been there, you didn’t do that, and you didn’t see what happens, you simply heard a story from some “friends” :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/125 "2016-12-19T20:41:01Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > Chaplains are cross-trained in all faiths and able to take care of soldiers regardless of religious affiliation If you believe this, then what is the need for a new atheist chaplain? You just said yourself that all chaplains are “able to take care of soldiers regardless of religious affiliation” So, why can’t the all ready existing chaplains take care of atheist military members? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/126 "2016-12-19T20:44:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Basically the question shouldn’t be “Why allow it?” > It should be “Why _not_ allow it?” Because that’s not how change management works? Pretty much figure out what the compelling need is, and determine if a solution already exists. If not, figure out a good solution. It’s not start with a solution and try to derive a need from it. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/127 "2016-12-19T20:45:34Z")
- nm - ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/128 "2016-12-19T20:49:03Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If you believe this, then what is the need for a new atheist chaplain? What is this need to NOT allow them? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/129 "2016-12-19T21:08:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So when you said “Been there, done that, seen what happens” you meant you haven’t been there, you didn’t do that, and you didn’t see what happens, you simply heard a story from some “friends” :dubious: Is there a reason you put it as “friends”, followed by the dubious smiley? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/130 "2016-12-19T21:12:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Is there a reason you put it as “friends”, followed by the dubious smiley? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/131 "2016-12-19T21:15:26Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Yes. And what would that reason be? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/132 "2016-12-19T21:23:40Z")
Because after you posted “Been there, done that, seen what happens” I fully expected you to have a credible story about a military person that you saw visit a psychiatrist or other mental health professional and then you saw first hand the stigma that he faced in getting promoted and/or denied enlistment. Instead, you come back with “Well, I heard a story from a friend one time” - which is not what you said at all. Therefore I am dubious of the accuracy of your story. In any event, I will concede that the military needs atheist chaplains if you concede that the military also needs scientology chaplains. Also, in your opinion, what qualifications would someone need in order to become an atheist chaplain? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/133 "2016-12-19T21:27:27Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > . . . “Well, I heard a story from a friend one time” - which is not what you said at all. . . . That’s true: that isn’t what he said at all. Why would you quote someone incorrectly? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/134 "2016-12-19T21:35:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s true: that isn’t what he said at all. Why would you quote someone incorrectly? LOL, ok 😉 “I’ve had friends that said [insert sob story]” is not the same as “Been there, done that, seen what happens” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/135 "2016-12-19T21:46:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Because after you posted “Been there, done that, seen what happens” I fully expected you to have a credible story about a military person that you saw visit a psychiatrist or other mental health professional and then you saw first hand the stigma that he faced in getting promoted and/or denied enlistment. > > **Instead, you come back with “Well, I heard a story from a friend one time” - which is not what you said at all.** Therefore I am dubious of the accuracy of your story. > > In any event, I will concede that the military needs atheist chaplains if you concede that the military also needs scientology chaplains. > > Also, in your opinion, what qualifications would someone need in order to become an atheist chaplain? (bolding mine) I didn’t say the part of your so-called “quotation” that I bolded, either- :dubious:, indeed. BTW, it’s not just atheists [that are having problems with the military chaplaincy program.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_chaplains) Other religions are having problems with under(and non) representation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/136 "2016-12-19T21:50:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > LOL, ok 😉 > > “I’ve had friends that said [insert sob story]” is not the same as “Been there, done that, seen what happens” Since you seem to have no intention of taking this seriously, I see no reason to listen to any more of your requests. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/137 "2016-12-19T22:04:51Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If you believe this, then what is the need for a new atheist chaplain? You just said yourself that all chaplains are “able to take care of soldiers regardless of religious affiliation” So, why can’t the all ready existing chaplains take care of atheist military members? What do you mean “if you _believe_ this”. I thought you said you were military, in which case you should understand that this is a requirement of their duty. Must I provide a cite for this? Give me a second and I will do that for you. As to your question, “…So, why can’t the all ready existing chaplains take care of atheist military members?” The answer is that belief in a god should not be a requirement for any position in government. It should not be required for chaplains, either. Chaplains are required in order to support worship accommodation for all soldiers and all religions. An atheist can do that as well as a priest. An atheist chaplain can ensure that there are accommodations available for all soldiers to worship, and advise the commander on the religious and spiritual needs of the unit. The chaplain does not need to be a particular denomination or faith to do this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/138 "2016-12-19T22:14:23Z")
Interesting fact: [although the military has burial symbols for Humanists, atheists and even the Hammer of Thor, they don’t seem to have one for Scientology.](http://www.cem.va.gov/hmm/emblems.asp) ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/139 "2016-12-19T22:55:03Z")
When I was in the Army, admittedly over ten years ago, the only person I knew who saw a psychiatrist was in the process of medically separating from the military. It was very much looked down on by peers and leadership alike. I’d like to think this attitude is changing, but it won’t change very quickly. And I can’t even own a firearm in Illinois with a psychiatric history, so the government apparently feels the same way. Why would a soldier ever visit a psychiatrist if he could lose his job and basic constitutional rights over it? We need _more_ chaplains, not less, and all kinds. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/140 "2016-12-20T00:16:24Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Again, the Armed Forces DO provide secular psychologists and therapists and counselors for servicemen who want them. Are they accessible in the same way? Anytime I went on ‘sick parade’ it was a drawn out affair to determine if I wasn’t some sort of malingerer with a bunch of forms and other bureaucratic nonsense involved before seeing the medic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=8)