# Should the U.S. Military allow Humanist/Secularist/Atheist chaplains? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 15, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801 "2016-12-15T19:32:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/141 "2016-12-20T02:30:41Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > When I was in the Army, admittedly over ten years ago, the only person I knew who saw a psychiatrist was in the process of medically separating from the military. As I recall, Joseph Heller wrote a book about this. It was right in the title. They will send you home if you are crazy, but if you want to go home, you are provably _not_ crazy. It was a paradox. A specifically enumerated paradox. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/142 "2016-12-20T03:46:18Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Are they accessible in the same way? Anytime I went on ‘sick parade’ it was a drawn out affair to determine if I wasn’t some sort of malingerer with a bunch of forms and other bureaucratic nonsense involved before seeing the medic. When was this, 1950s, 1960s, early 1970s? I first went on active duty in early 1979, retired in early 2000, and during that entire time, getting a medical or chaplain appointment was as easy as calling the clinic/hospital/chapel and arranging for same. Yes, we did have sick call, but that was also quite easy–inform your first line supervisor, go to sick call, return to duty afterwards with a “note from doc” stating what your disposition was (“return to duty”, “sick in quarters”, “admitted to hospital”, “deceased”, etc.). The point is that getting a medical appointment or a chaplain’s appointment isn’t the dire thing you’re making it out to be. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/143 "2016-12-20T03:58:41Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The point is that getting a medical appointment or a chaplain’s appointment isn’t the dire thing you’re making it out to be. 80’s. I’m not making it out to be a dire thing. If accessing one is as easy as the other, then okay. What records are kept of a person accessing psychological services vs going to the chaplain? You do understand the concern, right? One is far more likely to be logged and kept on record. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/144 "2016-12-20T05:12:33Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > 80’s. I’m not making it out to be a dire thing. If accessing one is as easy as the other, then okay. What records are kept of a person accessing psychological services vs going to the chaplain? You do understand the concern, right? One is far more likely to be logged and kept on record. The chaplain keeps confidential records; the medical facility keeps confidential records. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/145 "2016-12-20T05:19:40Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > The chaplain keeps confidential records; the medical facility keeps confidential records. Reputation-wise, there will be a difference between being seen walking into a psychiatric facility or psychiatrist’s office, and walking into a church. ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/146 "2016-12-20T06:33:24Z")
Honestly as far as access to care of psychiatrists and psychologists I think a lot of it depends on what base you are stationed at and what hospitals and clinics there are like. Now this wasn’t at night but during the duty day I asked to go to the dreaded thirteenth floor. But I just filled out some forms and was talking to the Doc within 45 mins or less and was prescribed medication that same day, access wasn’t an issue and I don’t think it would have been outside work hours either, now downrange I can’t really say, other than again prob depends where you are. I also did see some enlisted men get a few promotions that also were medicated and under psychiatric care, they were great soldiers so maybe it wasn’t much of a bad mark against them but I’m sure if you were a shitbag it would weigh as an additional negative. Being an atheist myself I doubt too many would want to spend their days holding religious ceremonies honoring and giving advice about deities they don’t believe in but hey I’ve been wrong before. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/147 "2016-12-20T07:29:36Z")
> [@pool](#): > > Being an atheist myself I doubt too many would want to spend their days holding religious ceremonies honoring and giving advice about deities they don’t believe in but hey I’ve been wrong before. Data point which seems to be misunderstood in this thread: chaplains _do not_ conduct services in which they don’t believe. Muslim chaplains do not conduct Holy Eucharist, Latter-day Saint chaplains do not baptize little babies, Jewish chaplains do not ordain priests in the Community of Christ. Another data point that the author of the link in the OP missed is that chaplains in the military serve everyone in the military, not just those members of their own denomination in the military. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/148 "2016-12-20T07:37:28Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > …Latter-day Saint chaplains do not baptize little babies,… There is a lot of call for this in the military now? Must have changed quite a bit since I’ve been in;) ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/149 "2016-12-20T07:51:33Z")
Well after reading the the article about the guy who wanted to be a Humanist Navy Chaplain, though he apparently lost in court, I guess I have changed my view and think that it should be allowed, I really can’t think of a good reason why not. So **Czarcasm** , you have converted (heh) me anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/150 "2016-12-20T08:54:21Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > There is a lot of call for this in the military now? Must have changed quite a bit since I’ve been in;) You may have heard of female soldiers? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/151 "2016-12-20T12:10:39Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > You may have heard of female soldiers? Not too many pregnant female soldiers out in the field at the last part of the third trimester where your only access to a baptism would be a chaplain. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2016, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/152 "2016-12-20T12:29:10Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > There is a lot of call for this in the military now? Must have changed quite a bit since I’ve been in;) Not so much in the field, I would imagine, but certainly on bases. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/153 "2016-12-21T20:06:37Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > What do you mean “if you _believe_ this”. I thought you said you were military, in which case you should understand that this is a requirement of their duty. Must I provide a cite for this? Give me a second and I will do that for you I meant if YOU believe that. I certainly do. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/154 "2016-12-21T20:10:20Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Since you seem to have no intention of taking this seriously, I see no reason to listen to any more of your requests. I do take it seriously. And of course you stop listening after you’ve been called out for your bullshit “been there, done that, seen what happens” story. Pretty convenient for you :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/155 "2016-12-21T20:17:44Z")
> [@Bear\_Nenno](#): > > and advise the commander on the religious and spiritual needs of the unit. The chaplain does not need to be a particular denomination or faith to do this. This is the one part I don’t understand. How can someone advise the commander on something they don’t even believe in? Commander - “So Chaplain Johnson, are all the religious and spiritual needs of the unit being taken care of?” Chaplain - “Well Sir, a lot of guys are having issues with reconciling killing people with the teachings of Jesus” Commander - “And how are you comforting them?” Chaplain - “I simply tell them there is no such thing as God or Jesus, so quit worrying about it. Seems to really help!” Command - “Thanks Chappie!” :rolleyes: To be fair, I don’t care if there are Chaplains in the military or not, nor did I when I was still enlisted. And I can see how an atheist can provide counseling for secular issues. I just cannot reconcile how an atheist can provide spiritual support to somebody. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/156 "2016-12-21T20:26:07Z")
Just like the Jewish chaplain would tell the Christian soldiers not to worry about following the teachings of Jesus cause he was just another guy, and the Christian chaplains would tell the Jewish soldiers they would be going to Hell for not believing that Jesus was their messiah, right? Got any _more_ strawman conversations to throw our way, **manson1972**? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/157 "2016-12-21T20:33:51Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Just like the Jewish chaplain would tell the Christian soldiers not to worry about following the teachings of Jesus cause he was just another guy, and the Christian chaplains would tell the Jewish soldiers they would be going to Hell for not believing that Jesus was their messiah, right? > > Got any _more_ strawman conversations to throw our way, **manson1972**? I thought you quit listening? Guess I’ll put your “I see no reason to listen” statement with your “been there, done that, seen what happens” bullshit story. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/158 "2016-12-21T20:41:10Z")
Moving on from…whatever _that_ was. Has anybody ever actually answered the question as to whether psychiatrists and secular counselors are as available as chaplains out in the field? I know that the last time I asked, the response I got was something like, “If they were, would you be satisfied?”, but that doesn’t really answer the question I asked. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/159 "2016-12-21T20:43:08Z")
The whole idea just seems silly to me. When someone visits a chaplain he wants a religious perspective. “What would Jesus do?”, “what will get me upticked in my next incarnation?” type thing, even if the details are mundane human concerns. What’s an expert Humanist gonna do for me? He’s just some guy. I say all this as an atheist. Why do I want to talk to some random dude who got the atheist chaplain gig? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2016, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801/160 "2016-12-21T20:54:58Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Moving on from…whatever _that_ was. > > Has anybody ever actually answered the question as to whether psychiatrists and secular counselors are as available as chaplains out in the field? I know that the last time I asked, the response I got was something like, “If they were, would you be satisfied?”, but that doesn’t really answer the question I asked. Yeah, sorry. Trying a different sort of levity, since making any sort of explicit joke gets me slapped with “You are not taking this seriously” I think serious debate can withstand a little joviality (is that a word?) In answer to your question, I previously linked to a story about a psychologist who actually travelled around Iraq or Afghanistan to the various FOBs so he seemed pretty available. I wasn’t in the Army, nor in Iraq or Afghanistan, so I can’t relate any info on who travelled where to counsel troops. I was stationed in Saudi Arabia, and I only ever saw the Chaplain (not sure what denomination of Christian) at intramural volleyball games. There were plenty of signs in each workspace showing the numbers of the Chaplain and various counselors that were available any time, day or night. Perhaps someone who was in Iraq or Afghanistan can give some info there. And as far as the stigma is concerned, recent HIPAA laws and the multitude of people coming back with PTSD has pretty much removed any stigma associated with seeking help. Army friends of mine actively talked about their PTSD and their treatment (Yes I know it’s a “my friend said” story) but that’s all I got. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-military-allow-humanist-secularist-atheist-chaplains/774801.md?page=9)