# Should the U.S./NATO establish a no-fly zone over Libya? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 27, 2011, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815 "2011-02-27T17:52:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/41 "2011-02-28T17:09:33Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > And the UN, due to the infamous Chinese veto is dominated by fanatical anti-Americans who’s more obssessed with Israel than Qadaffi. From the UN: “26 February 2011 – The Security Council today **voted unanimously** to impose sanctions against the Libyan authorities, slapping the country with an arms embargo and freezing the assets of its leaders, while referring the ongoing violent repression of civilian demonstrators to the International Criminal Court (ICC).” While China may abstain from a vote to institute a no-fly zone, I doubt they would veto it. China has enough problems with their human rights record. I doubt they see any need to add fuel to the fire. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/42 "2011-02-28T17:46:11Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Infamous Chinese veto? The Chinese governments used the veto 6 times from 1946 to 2007, compared to the US with 82 uses and the USSR/Russia with 123. > > [File:UNSC veto.svg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UNSC_veto.svg) Thanks for this - this is a great example of how **Qin Shi Huangdi** “knows stuff” that simply is not factually correct. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 28, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/43 "2011-02-28T19:19:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I agree. It’s just laziness in thinking Arab = Middle East (and even then, it’s not all Arab). You might as well say the US is part of “Greater Europe”. [You might well say the U.S. is part of “Western Civilization.”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clash_of_Civilizations) (And in a way that Latin America is not – or so Samuel P. Huntington seems to believe.) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/44 "2011-03-01T00:11:29Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Of course the US and NATO should do it. And the US by necessity will end up leading it-the European militaries are technologically advanced but due to their focus on social welfare they are often tiny and often lack projection capabilities. Don’t be silly. Between them the European NATO members field numerous squadrons of Eurofighter Typhoons and other advanced fighters. Italy has an air force base within 400km of Tripoli. It may be that some US AWACS and aerial refueling assets would be invaluable, but I strongly suspect that the Italian Air Force could have a flight of Typhoons over Tripoli within the hour if the appropriate orders were given. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/45 "2011-03-01T02:10:11Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > So you just don’t care if we galvanize support for Qadaffi? Shouldn’t we consider the consequences to our actions? > > What if he puts civilians in transports? You okay with shooting them down when Qadaffi broadcasts their corpses as the result of an American airstrike, and as evidence that this is all an international plot against him? Then the blood will be on Qadaffi’s hands and anybody more intelligent than an imbecile will immediately recognize Qadaffi intentionally sent those planes to be shot down to blame America. > [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Infamous Chinese veto? The Chinese governments used the veto 6 times from 1946 to 2007, compared to the US with 82 uses and the USSR/Russia with 123. > > [File:UNSC veto.svg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UNSC_veto.svg) > [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > From the UN: > “26 February 2011 – The Security Council today **voted unanimously** to impose sanctions against the Libyan authorities, slapping the country with an arms embargo and freezing the assets of its leaders, while referring the ongoing violent repression of civilian demonstrators to the International Criminal Court (ICC).” > > While China may abstain from a vote to institute a no-fly zone, I doubt they would veto it. China has enough problems with their human rights record. I doubt they see any need to add fuel to the fire. Alright I apologize for that but don’t forget China was represented by Nationalist China until 1971 or so. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/46 "2011-03-01T04:57:52Z")
The time to engage in a no-fly zone would have been when we had American citizens to protect. That ship has literally sailed. On the other hand, there is still some unfinished business associated with the bombing of flight 103 so maybe Gaddafi could be offered early retirement. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/47 "2011-03-01T04:58:52Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Thanks for this - this is a great example of how **Qin Shi Huangdi** “knows stuff” that simply is not factually correct. Things were different back when he was running things in China. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/48 "2011-03-02T04:12:13Z")
BBC just showed General John Mattis of Central Command telling Congress that establishing a no-fly zone is more than just shooting down a couple of planes. We’d have to bomb air defences and do a lot of other stuff. US Defence Secretary Robert Gates does not seem to favor it either. Looks like David Cameron is all for it though. I’d think it great if Nato would do it, but they won’t without UN backing, and analysts on the Beeb think China and Russia would both veto it. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/49 "2011-03-02T17:21:57Z")
The rebel leadership council in now calling for UN air strikes against mercenary encampments. Their calls for no foreign intervention - on the ground - are directed as much against them as they are to any pro-rebel or neutral forces. A lot of battles across the country today, but also seeing reports of Libyan pilots missing their targets. As the reporter put it, they are either terrible shots or doing so deliberately. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/50 "2011-03-02T17:56:19Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > The rebel leadership council in now calling for UN air strikes against mercenary encampments. Cite? I did see a report on CNN yesterday that there were rumors that the Libyan opposition was considering asking the U.S. for an airstrike to topple Gaddafi’s government. However, they stressed this could not be confirmed, and that it goes against everything else we’ve been hearing out of the opposition, and that, at present, the opposition has no recognized leadership that could make such a request. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/51 "2011-03-02T18:08:37Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Don’t be silly. Between them the European NATO members field numerous squadrons of Eurofighter Typhoons and other advanced fighters. Italy has an air force base within 400km of Tripoli. It may be that some US AWACS and aerial refueling assets would be invaluable, but I strongly suspect that the Italian Air Force could have a flight of Typhoons over Tripoli within the hour if the appropriate orders were given. Given Ghadaffi allegedly introduced Berlusconi to bunga bunga in his bedouin tent, this isn’t going to happen in a million years. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/52 "2011-03-02T19:00:02Z")
There is nobody who can speak for the revolutionaries. They can not ask for us to intervene. I have seen people involved in the fight ask for outside help and others saying stay out. It has to be a UN mandate. Without it, we are the imperialists who are taking over Arab oil countries. It may be we have to stand by the side and watch Gadaffy win. But if we get in many will suddenly back him. We do not need to make him a sympathetic leader standing up against the voracious ,imperialist capitalists. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/53 "2011-03-02T19:01:27Z")
There is nobody who can speak for the revolutionaries. They can not ask for us to intervene. I have seen people involved in the fight ask for outside help and others saying stay out. It has to be a UN mandate. Without it, we are the imperialists who are taking over Arab oil countries. It may be we have to stand by the side and watch Gadaffy win. But if we get in many will suddenly back him. We do not need to make him a sympathetic leader standing up against the voracious ,imperialist capitalists. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/54 "2011-03-02T19:13:28Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Given Ghadaffi allegedly introduced Berlusconi to bunga bunga in his bedouin tent, this isn’t going to happen in a million years. And Berlusconi was, as usual, the only idiot in Europe to give support to Ben Ali after the beginning of the revolution there. He isn’t enough of an idiot to support Kadhafi, but I wouldn’t count on him to order any palatable or even sensible action. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/55 "2011-03-03T12:28:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The time to engage in a no-fly zone would have been when we had American citizens to protect. That ship has literally sailed. That’s daft, utterly daft. Why the bloody hell would you do a no fly zone when your citizens are on the ground, ripe to be taken hostage?!?!? That is precisely the time you **don’t** say or do anything. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2011, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815/56 "2011-03-03T12:39:49Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > And Berlusconi was, as usual, the only idiot in Europe to give support to Ben Ali after the beginning of the revolution there. He isn’t enough of an idiot to support Kadhafi, but I wouldn’t count on him to order any palatable or even sensible action. Berlusconi. The best Italian President money can buy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-u-s-nato-establish-a-no-fly-zone-over-libya/572815.md?page=2)