# Should the UK Government help Hong Kong **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 7, 2013, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291 "2013-03-07T15:13:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/21 "2013-03-07T23:10:46Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I thought they handed it back because like the lease was up… though the mind boggles at how you would evict a government, it isn’t like you could staple the eviction notice on the door, and a month later send the sheriffs around. They didn’t have to evict. The lease was up on the New Territories, without which Hong Kong was not able to survive. They didn’t have to kick the British out…the British recognized that they couldn’t really hold onto Hong Kong without the NT to sustain it. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/22 "2013-03-07T23:14:37Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > …Britain handed the whole thing back in 1997 because without the New Territories, Hong Kong and Kowloon were not really sustainable, and also because it was the right thing to do. There was plenty of warning, as **Bryan Ekers** pointed out in his post… It was certainly the correct thing to due under international law, but whether it was the “right” thing to do is up to debate. In not allowing the locals any kind of plebiscite to determine their own status the PRC is just as guilty of colonialism (at least in the moral sense) as the UK. > [@Rodgers01](#): > > …If Britain hadn’t agreed to that 99-year lease back in 1898 would the entire thing still be British-run now? In 1909 there was a proposal to return the [Weihai Garrison](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weihaiwei) to China in exchange for perpetual rule of the New Territories, but that wasn’t acted upon. If it had Hong Kong would still be the Gilbralter of the Orient. It was later returned to China anyway in 1930. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/23 "2013-03-07T23:15:58Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > _Was_ it the right thing to do? I go back and forth on the issue. On the one hand, the way Hong Kong was acquired was awful. But the horrors that China inflicted on itself in the years since then (particularly under Mao) were way, _way_ worse than anything the British ever did. Frankly, I think I might have erred on the side of keeping them - even if only Hong Kong and Kowloon, and negotiating an in-between step for the New Territories akin to what is in place now. > > If Britain hadn’t agreed to that 99-year lease back in 1898 would the entire thing still be British-run now? The place isn’t defensible or self sufficent. There wasn’t much the Brits could do omce the Chinese decided they wanted it other then negotiate the nest termd for a handover that they could, ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/24 "2013-03-07T23:19:52Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I thought they handed it back because like the lease was up… though the mind boggles at how you would evict a government, it isn’t like you could staple the eviction notice on the door, and a month later send the sheriffs around. No, not really. The colony of Hong Kong was acquired in three parts. The first part (Hong Kong Island) was granted to Britain in perpetuity by a treaty in 1842. Some additional territory (Kowloon Peninsula) was granted to Britain in perpetuity a second treaty in 1860. And finally a third treaty in 1898 granted Britain the final (and largest) piece of territory (known as the New Territories) for a period of 99 years. So it was only this third piece of territory that Britain was legally obligated to turn back over to China in 1997. But this posed a dilemma. While almost half of the people in Hong Kong lived in the original two territories, they were dependent on the New Territories for supplies (including most of its water). Britain could have insisted on holding on to Hong Kong Island and Kowloon Peninsula but China would have been in a position to cut off these areas and essentially starve them out. Maybe Britain should have treated Hong Kong like West Berlin in the Cold War and tried to maintain the city. But they decided to negotiate with China and agreed to turn the entire colony over to China when the 1898 lease expired. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/25 "2013-03-07T23:28:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Well, between 1984 and 1997, many residents of Hong Kong got the heck outta there, so it’s not like those who stayed behind can claim to have been caught by surprise. From a moral standpoint, I feel Britain should have opened its borders to all Hong Kong residents between 1984 and 1997. These people were British subjects and should have been allowed to the option to resettle in some other part of Britain rather than simply be turned over to China. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/26 "2013-03-08T05:06:22Z")
AndyAu, what’s the debate? You’re correct that the British government sold the Hong Kongese down the river. The British government had plenty of chances, let’s be charitable, in the post WW2, to make Hong Kongese British subjects full British citizens. Think of the joke that the BNO was? ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/27 "2013-03-08T13:04:11Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > The place isn’t defensible or self sufficent. There wasn’t much the Brits could do omce the Chinese decided they wanted it other then negotiate the nest termd for a handover that they could, This. Once China decided it wanted Hong Kong back the colony was indefensible. Even with the New Territories HK was not really self sufficient and the PRC had the ability to make the place ungovernable without any direct military intervention. > [@China\_Guy](#): > > AndyAu, what’s the debate? You’re correct that the British government sold the Hong Kongese down the river. > > The British government had plenty of chances, let’s be charitable, in the post WW2, to make Hong Kongese British subjects full British citizens. Think of the joke that the BNO was? It had the chances but it was never going to happen. Call it racist or pragmatic but HMG was never going to allow several million ethnic Chinese the right to come to the UK. By the 70s and 80s immigration was a political hot topic (it still is!) and no party could be seen to provide such an open door. Remember the 1981 British Nationality Act effectively ruled out the few thousand ethnically British Falkland Islanders settling in Britain (it was only the Argentinian invasion and the war that led to this being rethought). ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/28 "2013-03-08T14:20:34Z")
What’s the issue with Hong Kong right now? I thought it was pretty autonomous, and the Chinese government didn’t particularly interfere in the internal governance? I know their chief executive is only pseudo-democratically elected because their electoral college-type institution has some non-democratic elements, but I don’t think that’s any worse than the British appointed ruler of Hong Kong who wasn’t democratically elected at all. Has China done stuff recently to make Hong Kong specifically less free? I haven’t seen anything in particular. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291/29 "2013-03-28T07:42:47Z")
> [@MarcusF](#): > > It had the chances but it was never going to happen. Call it racist or pragmatic but HMG was never going to allow several million ethnic Chinese the right to come to the UK. _Disclaimer: These are 2013 numbers, not 1997._ I’d guess a little bit of both. The UK proper has 53 million people living in it; Hong Kong, 7 million. The UK has a population density of 661.9 per square mile; for comparison’s sake, the U.S.'s population density is 88.6. Now I’m certain that if they’d been given full rights as British citizens, not all 7 million Hong Kongers would choose to move to Great Britain. But even if 10% of them did, you’d still be talking about adding 700,000 people, which is no small amount. (And currently the UK has only 0.4% ethnic Chinese citizens, so perhaps racism played no small role). Please keep in mind I’m just going by numbers, and have no personal knowledge of circumstances. After all, there are lies, there are damn lies, and then there are statistics. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-uk-government-help-hong-kong/652291.md?page=1)