# Should the United Negro College Fund turn down the gift from the Koch brothers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199 "2014-06-06T14:09:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/201 "2014-06-14T17:26:11Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Greenland still ain’t the Arctic. So what do think about the Arctic-ice-melt-won’t-have-any-effect-on-sea-rise claim? :rolleyes: > **[Arctic Circle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Circle)** > > The Arctic Circle is one of the two polar circles, and the northernmost of the five major circles of latitude as shown on maps of Earth at about 66° 34' N. Its southern counterpart is the Antarctic Circle. > The Arctic Circle marks the southernmost latitude at which, on the winter solstice in the Northern Hemisphere, the Sun does not rise all day, and on the Northern Hemisphere's summer solstice, the Sun does not set. These phenomena are referred to as polar night and midnight sun respectively, ... Greenland is way inside the Arctic Circle, it is why Denmark (that controls Greenland) claims regions of the Arctic. And there are many reports about the ice loss from Greenland indeed. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/202 "2014-06-14T17:34:10Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Greenland still ain’t the Arctic. Oh dear, oh _dear_. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/203 "2014-06-14T17:42:46Z")
Indeed grossly wrong, so so much for the point that contrarians are credible. **doorhinge** is really missing the point in an attempt at making a very dumb point, Dr Baxter and others were pointed at to answer the hypothetical of what would happen if the polar ice caps melted. Clearly the idea for contrarians was to then claim that that was confusing when the confusion is coming from the contrarians that clearly do not know what a timeline is. In the meantime we are concentrating here on more likely stuff like the rise of the oceans that we can expect by the end of the century, and how wrong the deniers were and continue to be by claiming that no acceleration of the ice loss was going to take place. The Koch brothers already funded a very recognised scientific group to review the research and the data, the scientific group already came with the conclusion that the contrarians were wrong. Based on that the brothers should stop the funding of groups that do not do science but only publish denial tripe. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/204 "2014-06-14T17:46:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > :rolleyes: > > [Arctic Circle - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic_Circle) > > Greenland is way inside the Arctic Circle, it is why Denmark (that controls Greenland) claims regions of the Arctic. > > And there are many reports about the ice loss from Greenland indeed. HowStuffWorks climatologists discussed the Arctic ice separately from the Greenland ice. So what do think about the Arctic-ice-melt-won’t-have-any-effect-on-sea-rise claim? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/205 "2014-06-14T17:53:35Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > HowStuffWorks climatologists discussed the Arctic ice separately from the Greenland ice. > > So what do think about the Arctic-ice-melt-won’t-have-any-effect-on-sea-rise claim? I think… No, scratch that, we **know** that you are not paying attention, everyone can see that I already replied to this by pointing out what the ice over the Arctic ocean will do, the problem is the ice over Greenland and other Arctic regions. And if you think pointing at howstuffworks is a gaffe (once again it was pointed out to explain things at a kid’s level) your not acknowledgement of where Greenland is does “wonders” to your credibility. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/206 "2014-06-14T22:41:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Of course it will? The global warming zealots are suggesting that global warming will destroy the planet AND that global warming will eventually stop by itself. > > And that global warming is caused by man-made CO2. > > If you don’t regulate man-made CO2, global warming will stop. If you do regulate man-made CO2, global warming will stop. > > Your object to my ASKING how they justify their position. It couldn’t be that you are afraid of their answer, would it? No, but it definitely could be that you don’t understand what climate equilibrium is. In fact, since you don’t seem to understand anything else about climate, I’d say it was a certainty that you don’t understand that aspect of it either. > [@doorhinge](#): > > The HowStuffWorks climatologists, on the other hand, claims a 200ft sea level increase AND that the loss of all ice at the northern pole will have no effect on sea level rise. Interesting stuff. They didn’t show the math for either the 200ft claim or the no-effect claim but that seems to be SOP for the CO2-is-evil side. > > So what do think about their Arctic-ice-melt-won’t-have-any-effect-on-sea-rise claim? As many have already pointed out, your constant belabored arguments on the supposed lack of hard information make absolutely no sense. I’ve previously cited papers on Antarctic ice melt, as well as the extraordinary rapid loss of ice all over the Arctic. It’s not anybody’s fault if you’re incapable of looking up the massive volume of facts in the scientific literature, or don’t even know where Greenland is. Arctic ice loss by itself doesn’t contribute proportionately to sea level rise because so much of it is sea ice, but accelerated Arctic warming does contribute by accelerating the melt of land glaciers that exist in some parts of the Arctic like Greenland and elsewhere and by contributing to thermal expansion which is a major component of sea level rise. And I’ve already cited papers about the rate of Antarctic ice sheet melt. The fact that you are ignorant of these papers doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Here, let me help. You can start with _TS.2.6 Changes in Sea Level_ and _TFE.2: Sea Level Change: Scientific Understanding and Uncertainties_ in the IPCC WG1 AR5 Technical Summary, and the entirety of Chapter 13, _Sea Level Change_, in the main report which is **supported by 18 pages of citations encompassing approximately 540 cited peer-reviewed research papers on sea level rise alone**. The following short paragraphs from the Technical Summary provide a basic quick starting point on the paleoclimate connection to sea level rise, one of the important empirical bases of estimation. > [@](#): > > During the warm intervals of the middle Pliocene (3.3 to 3.0 million years ago), when there is medium confidence that global mean surface temperatures were 2°C to 3.5°C warmer than for pre-industrial climate and CO2 levels were between 250 and 450 ppm, sedimentary records suggest periodic deglaciation of West Antarctica and parts of the East Antarctica. Ice-sheet models suggest near-complete deglaciation of the Greenland, West Antarctica and partial deglaciation of East Antarctica. Together, the evidence suggests that GMSL was above present levels at that time, but did not exceed 20 m above present (high confidence). {5.6.1, 13.2} > > During the Last Interglacial Period (about 129,000 to 116,000 years ago) when peak global warmth was not more than 2°C above pre-industrial temperatures, and peak global annual sea surface temperatures were 0.7 [0.1 to 1.3] °C warmer (medium confidence), maximum GMSL was at least 5 m higher than at present (very high confidence), but did not exceed 10 m (high confidence). Based on ice-sheet model simulations consistent with elevation changes derived from a new Greenland ice core, the Greenland ice sheet very likely contributed between 1.4 m and 4.3 m sea level equivalent, implying with medium confidence a contribution from the Antarctic ice sheet to the global mean sea level during the last interglacial period. {5.6.2, 13.2} ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/207 "2014-06-16T07:55:34Z")
The Kochs have a record of funding civil rights causes and think tanks and journalists that work on the racial inequality beat. So I’m not really sure what the issue is. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/208 "2014-06-16T09:21:34Z")
> [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](#): > > The Kochs have a record of funding civil rights causes and think tanks and journalists that work on the racial inequality beat. So I’m not really sure what the issue is. If you’re “not really sure what the issue is”, then you haven’t read this thread, never pay attention to the news, and have apparently been living in a cave all your life. Aside from the excellent points made by many others, I provided some [informative links here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17440598&postcount=48), and [here’s one more](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all) that makes for good reading. The Kochs seem to be in the running for one of the most insidious, powerful, and secretive sources of political influence in the modern history of putative democracies. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/209 "2014-06-16T14:48:54Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That was a reply to your silly question that you claim was the point, “what would happen if the polar ice caps melted?” I thought then pointing at a kids site would explain it at an easier level, but some can not take it. It was not really the point but as it clear in context the idea is to find any straw to grasp in an attempt to make the scientists sound ridiculous. The point stands, deniers fooled many by telling us that the ice will not melt, and now they are more wrong as the evidence shows that the melt is accelerating. > > And you ignore greenland on that. > > Something that I made notice with my comment that of course it will not all melt, but thanks for making more evidence to show that you do not pay attention. > > As **Left Hand of Dorkness** pointed out, you are making less sense, and only giving more evidence that you only want to keep pushing the ignorance. (post shortened) Let’s view the instant replay. According to the article you linked - \*If the Polar Ice Caps Melt Are the polar ice caps in danger of melting and causing the oceans to rise? This could happen, but no one knows when it might happen. …At the other end of the world, the North Pole, the ice is not nearly as thick as at the South Pole. The ice floats on the Arctic Ocean. If it melted, sea levels would not be affected. There is a significant amount of ice covering Greenland, which would add another 7 meters (20 feet) to the oceans if it melted. Because Greenland is closer to the equator than Antarctica, the temperatures there are higher, so the ice is more likely to melt. Scientists from the Universities of London and Edinburgh say that ice loss in Antarctica and Greenland together contribute approximately 12 percent of the rise in sea levels (Source: Science Daily).\* You’ll notice that the page you provided addressed Greenland ice melt separately from pole ice melt. Key word - separately. USA, Canada, Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia also have land masses within the Arctic Circle but the page you linked didn’t address their ice melt. You’ve even, repeatedly, noticed that I had ignored (aka didn’t mention) Greenland ice when I questioned the HowStuffWorks statement that ice melt at the North Pole/Arctic wouldn’t affect sea level rise. My question to you is if you believe that to be a true statement. In post 192, the **Left Hand of Dorkness** also pointed out, “Of COURSE warming will stop at some point.” I assume you agree with that statement, also. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/210 "2014-06-16T14:51:13Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > If you’re “not really sure what the issue is”, then you haven’t read this thread, never pay attention to the news, and have apparently been living in a cave all your life. Aside from the excellent points made by many others, I provided some [informative links here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17440598&postcount=48), and [here’s one more](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/08/30/100830fa_fact_mayer?currentPage=all) that makes for good reading. The Kochs seem to be in the running for one of the most insidious, powerful, and secretive sources of political influence in the modern history of putative democracies. Personally, I would bestow that honor on George Soros. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/211 "2014-06-16T15:01:35Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You’ve even, repeatedly, noticed that I had ignored (aka didn’t mention) Greenland ice when I questioned the HowStuffWorks statement that ice melt at the North Pole/Arctic wouldn’t affect sea level rise. My question to you is if you believe that to be a true statement. You do know how ice floats, right? Archimedes figured out the displacement stuff long ago. But do you know Greenland is not only in the Arctic but is actually land? > [@](#): > > In post 192, the **Left Hand of Dorkness** also pointed out, “Of COURSE warming will stop at some point.” I assume you agree with that statement, also. That’s true in the same way the surgeons’ joke that “Bleeding always stops, eventually” is true. BTW, in what way is George Soros spreading ignorance? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/212 "2014-06-16T15:18:57Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > You’ll notice that the page you provided addressed Greenland ice melt separately from pole ice melt. Key word - separately. :rolleyes: The cite was provided to answer the “what if the polar caps melted” indeed, no one knows when if ever that would take place. What it is clear that even though a complete melt will not take place there is a lot of gigatons of ice that are melting at an accelerated rate and there is no mechanism whatsoever that will tell us that the water will not go to increase the ocean rise, and now it is clear that it will be higher than the conservative estimate by the end of the century. And once again the deniers will not be more correct, they still are telling you that nothing will happen, never mind the evidence of the melting and the acceleration of it on top. Then later it was pointed to you that talking about the north pole ice over the ocean was a moot point as ice melting over the ocean does not do much for the ocean rise. And Greenland is in the Arctic, and no matter how much you want to ignore it, many others will not ignore that basic error when judging how credible you are. As pointed before the scientists are worrying about the ice in the glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica. Jumping up and down claiming that they are separated **as if that means something useful** in this discussion of how much Greenland and the Antarctic will contribute to the ocean rise is just an attempt at certifying your ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/213 "2014-06-16T16:08:48Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The cite was provided to answer the “what if the polar caps melted” indeed, no one knows when if ever that would take place. What it is clear that even though a complete melt will not take place there is a lot of gigatons of ice that are melting at an accelerated rate and there is no mechanism whatsoever that will tell us that the water will not go to increase the ocean rise, and now it is clear that it will be higher than the conservative estimate by the end of the century. And once again the deniers will not be more correct, they still are telling you that nothing will happen, never mind the evidence of the melting and the acceleration of it on top. > > Then later it was pointed to you that talking about the north pole ice over the ocean was a moot point as ice melting over the ocean does not do much for the ocean rise. And Greenland is in the Arctic, and no matter how much you want to ignore it, many others will not ignore that basic error when judging how credible you are. > > As pointed before the scientists are worrying about the ice in the glaciers in Greenland and Antarctica. Jumping up and down claiming that they are separated **as if that means something useful** in this discussion of how much Greenland and the Antarctic will contribute to the ocean rise is just an attempt at certifying your ignorance. It was the HowThingsWork climataligist who stated that Northern polar ice melt wouldn’t affect sea level rise. Are they a denier organization? If they are correct when they say that Northern pole ice won’t affect sea level rise, why has so much time been spent since 1988, by the friends of the IPCC, warning of Arctic pole ice melt? It did figured strongly in the great Polar-Bears-are-in-decline scam, which has been proven to be false and now is seen not to have any affect on sea level rise. You say no one knows if total ice cap melt will ever take place. That sounds like your saying that global warming/global cooling is a natural cycle. Average temp goes up, temp goes down, temp goes up, temp goes down. It’s obvious that you think my questioning of anything pertaining to the claims of global warming zealotry is a moot point. I don’t. We differ. I want answers. You want believers. If the global warming zealots want to change the status quo, they’re going to have to answer questions instead of simply dismissing them. If only to bolster the credibility of AGW. p.s. I didn’t introduce the Greenland strawman. That appears to have been created to give **ElvisL1ves** something to talk about. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/214 "2014-06-16T16:34:08Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It was the HowThingsWork climataligist who stated that Northern polar ice melt wouldn’t affect sea level rise. Are they a denier organization? :rolleyes: As pointed before everyone understands the ice over the ocean is not much of an issue, it is the volume in the glaciers over the land that is in the polar regions. > [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s obvious that you think my questioning of anything pertaining to the claims of global warming zealotry is a moot point. I don’t. We differ. I want answers. No, you don’t. You now want answers to your misunderstanding, and even when you get it it is clear that your ignorance is more valuable than understanding why it is silly to continue harping on that misunderstanding. > [@doorhinge](#): > > You want believers. If the global warming zealots want to change the status quo, they’re going to have to answer questions instead of simply dismissing them. If only to bolster the credibility of AGW. No, your credibility is in tatters for not understanding what a timeline is. > [@doorhinge](#): > > p.s. I didn’t introduce the Greenland strawman. That appears to have been created to give **ElvisL1ves** something to talk about. And this also kills whatever credibility you had, I mentioned that you are ignoring the ice melt of places like Greenland in the Arctic, you then said that “Greenland still ain’t the Arctic.” A high school level error that you are only making worse by claiming that it is a strawman, in fact you really did say it. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/215 "2014-06-16T16:59:03Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > …And this also kills whatever credibility you had, I mentioned that you are ignoring the ice melt of places like Greenland in the Arctic, you then said that “Greenland still ain’t the Arctic.” A high school level error that you are only making worse by claiming that it is a strawman, in fact you really did say it. Once again, I had asked about Arctic polar ice melt. You responded that I had ignored Greenland??? The article in question made separate statements about polar ice melt and Greenland ice melt. The article didn’t mention the other countries that have land masses within the Arctic Circle. I hadn’t asked about Greenland. You brought up Greenland. Except as an attempt to give **ElvisL1ves** something to write about, I don’t know why you brought up Greenland. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/216 "2014-06-16T17:01:32Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Greenland still ain’t the Arctic. Dude. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/217 "2014-06-16T17:25:40Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Once again, I had asked about Arctic polar ice melt. You responded that I had ignored Greenland??? The article in question made separate statements about polar ice melt and Greenland ice melt. The article didn’t mention the other countries that have land masses within the Arctic Circle. I hadn’t asked about Greenland. You brought up Greenland. Except as an attempt to give **ElvisL1ves** something to write about, I don’t know why you brought up Greenland. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: That is why I posted a link (to a different site ignored by you) to the contribution Greenland could make to the ocean rise, incidentally you are only showing all that you can not bother to read what you said, indeed I brought Greenland, as a region of the arctic that is melting; before \*\*ElvisL1ves \*\*mentioned it, you already had come with the whooper that “Greenland still ain’t the Arctic.” Meaning that even on timelines you participate you do not have a clue on how time works. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/218 "2014-06-16T18:25:24Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > That is why I posted a link (to a different site ignored by you) to the contribution Greenland could make to the ocean rise, incidentally you are only showing all that you can not bother to read what you said, indeed I brought Greenland, as a region of the arctic that is melting; before \*\*ElvisL1ves \*\*mentioned it, you already had come with the whooper that “Greenland still ain’t the Arctic.” > > Meaning that even on timelines you participate you do not have a clue on how time works. Greenland IS the Arctic? :smack: You make it sound like they’re identical twins. The Arctic Circle is a big place. I’ve seen a map of the Arctic Circle. It does not consist solely of Greenland. Greenland still ain’t the Arctic and the Arctic ain’t Greenland. > **[Map of the Arctic as defined by Arctic Circle](http://www.athropolis.com/map3.htm)** > > Map of the Arctic as defined by the Arctic Circle - an imaginary line at 66°33' North Latitude. Most people can find Greenland on a map (it’s often a shade of green 😉 ). Those same people can also find the Arctic Circle, the Arctic Ocean, and the North Pole. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/219 "2014-06-16T19:10:27Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Greenland IS the Arctic? :smack: You make it sound like they’re identical twins. Only you are confused about that, again, Greenland is in the Arctic, it is part of it, you told us that Greenland still ain’t the Arctic. The straw man here is to claim that we said that Greenland \*\*is \*\*the Arctic. Drop it or the only thing you get is that you are giving us evidence that you not only fail to pay attention at the links and the evidence but also that you do not pay attention to what I and others are actually writing. > [@doorhinge](#): > > The Arctic Circle is a big place. I’ve seen a map of the Arctic Circle. It does not consist solely of Greenland. Greenland still ain’t the Arctic and the Arctic ain’t Greenland. > > [Map of the Arctic as defined by Arctic Circle](http://www.athropolis.com/map3.htm) The point that you are trying to still avoid is that the ice over the arctic ocean will not do much if it melts, because it is over the ocean, the ice over Greenland is a different thing. And it is still in the Arctic. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Most people can find Greenland on a map (it’s often a shade of green 😉 ). Those same people can also find the Arctic Circle, the Arctic Ocean, and the North Pole. But, as we found out some people need to be confused about Greenland because acknowledging where it is and that its ice is melting will mean that what you did was just an attempt at stalling so as to never get what is going on. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2014, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/220 "2014-06-16T21:26:25Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > It was the HowThingsWork climataligist who stated that Northern polar ice melt wouldn’t affect sea level rise. Are they a denier organization? If they are correct when they say that Northern pole ice won’t affect sea level rise, why has so much time been spent since 1988, by the friends of the IPCC, warning of Arctic pole ice melt? It did figured strongly in the great Polar-Bears-are-in-decline scam, which has been proven to be false and now is seen not to have any affect on sea level rise. I’m afraid that I have to concur with **GIGO** that the more you write, the more you demonstrate how little you know about this subject (which seems to be par for the course for most denialists who favor contempt for science over knowledge). For some reason you got yourself all worked up about the fact that you’ve just discovered that floating sea ice doesn’t add to sea level rise when it melts. Trust me, scientists have been well aware of this for some time – in fact, since about the time of Archimedes. And unlike the Antarctic, much (but certainly not all) of Arctic ice is sea ice bounded by land masses, and we’ve known that for a very long time, too, though it’s apparently news to you. Arctic ice melt is important for many reasons, not the least of which is that it’s direct visible evidence of the accelerated rate of global warming in the Arctic, its impacts on biodiversity and animal and human habitats, and the feedback it creates through reduced albedo and methane emissions to further accelerate warming, among other things. And it also contributes to sea level rise through loss of land ice mass on significant land bodies like Greenland, and through ocean warming which causes thermal expansion. > [@doorhinge](#): > > You say no one knows if total ice cap melt will ever take place. That sounds like your saying that global warming/global cooling is a natural cycle. Average temp goes up, temp goes down, temp goes up, temp goes down. That’s not what he’s saying and that’s meaningless babble. The significance of losing the majority of the ice caps in the long term is that it’s a clear demarcation of a major point of no return at which powerful feedbacks dominate the climate – at that point we can throw all our estimates of equilibrium climate sensitivity out the window because we then face runaway climate change and geologically catastrophic sea level rise. But we’ll be in deep trouble long before then; in fact, we already are. CO2 levels have never been anywhere near this high since the human species has existed. > [@doorhinge](#): > > It’s obvious that you think my questioning of anything pertaining to the claims of global warming zealotry is a moot point. I don’t. We differ. I want answers. No, you don’t. [I gave you answers in this post.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=17462939&postcount=206) You ignored it. Have you even read the short IPCC summary of the science, let alone the full report or any of the other two WG reports, or the Technical Summary of the WG1, or even one of 540 citations on sea level rise I pointed you to? For someone who claims to want answers, you don’t seem to do a lot of science reading on this subject. Like, none at all. You just pontificate on it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199.md?page=12)