# Should the United Negro College Fund turn down the gift from the Koch brothers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2014, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199 "2014-06-06T14:09:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/21 "2014-06-06T16:24:11Z")
I’m not a fan of the politics of the Koch brothers Charles and David, but they have a long history of philanthropy, and a lot of it science oriented. That they are huge polluters far exceeds the good they do with philanthropy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/22 "2014-06-06T16:26:28Z")
> [@LonghornDave](#): > > Doesn’t it strike you as a little odd to call guys with master’s degrees in chemical engineering from MIT as anti-science? Not odd, sadly, just sad. Remember that their motivation is their own financial interest far more than the Quest for Truth. An MIT degree is an indication only of intelligence, not intellectual integrity. > [@](#): > > calling them anti-science sounds ludicrous. How else would you describe denialism? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/23 "2014-06-06T16:58:32Z")
The thing about C & D is that they could shift their interests to renewables and had they done so during the past dozen they could, with their resources, dominate the field the way Rockerfeller did oil. They probably still could do that. As it is, their attempts to buy the state of Wisconsin’s government (more or less successful) and influence national politics, while polluting as much as they do, knowing what they must know, makes them look like the worst capitalist future destroying assholes imaginable. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/24 "2014-06-06T16:58:45Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Well, in 2011 there was a [controversy](http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/billionaires-role-in-hiring-decisions-at-florida-state-university-raises/1168680) regarding a 1.5m donation to Florida State’s economics program. With that donation, > > I don’t know if the blowback caused them to cease this practice or if this is their MO. I wonder why the Koch Bros don’t just pick their own recipients? It’d be easy enough to create their own scholarship fund and choose who exactly gets the money. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/25 "2014-06-06T17:08:21Z")
That would be too blatant. They’re mainly trying to buy respectability. Setting an established university up as a front gives their Randist and denialist views a superficial appearance of validity. ---
**Author:** ![C6541](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90db22/32.png) [@C6541](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C6541)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/26 "2014-06-06T17:12:21Z")
Absolutely, even if they were flaming fascists I’d say take the money so long as there are no strings attached as others said. In fact the delicious irony would not be lost if denialists’ money funded deserving kids’ education. If people are worried this is a form of PR or whatever, the Koch brothers are known for philanthropism. However I know of no Koch opponent who has fallen for their philanthropy and then on was fine with their dirty money in politics. All and all I am very happy that deserving people will be getting educations. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/27 "2014-06-06T17:14:34Z")
I both admire and pity the people who have to do fundraising as a full-time job. The strain of sucking up to people you really hate, and who you know really hate you too, would do me in. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/28 "2014-06-06T17:15:49Z")
> [@C6541](#): > > If people are worried this is a form of PR or whatever, the Koch brothers are known for philanthropism. Even if they have ulterior motives in making this donation, I think I’m OK with people getting positive press for doing good things. ---
**Author:** ![C6541](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90db22/32.png) [@C6541](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C6541)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/29 "2014-06-06T17:23:36Z")
No doubt, just because they may be furthering an ideology in general I’m sure as hell not going to say “Screw those kids’ grants, I’VE got principles to uphold.” Life is unfortunately not so cut and dry. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/30 "2014-06-06T17:27:04Z")
I think they’re perfectly respectable, despite the shrill attacks coming from Harry Reid and others. As for ‘buying’ respectability: The Koch brothers have been major philanthropists for decades - long before they were a blip on the radar of the left. And they’re known for being low-key donators - they don’t do it to prop up their reputations. Furthermore, being libertarians they donate plenty of money to causes most everyone here would support, such as the NAACP grant above, $100 million to renovate the Lincoln Center, hundreds of millions to cancer research, millions of dollars to support _Nova_ on PBS, $15 million to the Museum of Natural History, $35 million to the Smithsonian, and on and on. The Kochs are also in favor of gay marriage, ending the drug war, and were opposed to the Iraq war. The prime reason they are ‘monsters’ now is that they happen to disagree with Obamacare and the broad sweep of new regulations Obama has been implementing. That makes them a problem for the current administration, which of course makes them enemies of mankind - unlike George Soros, whose hundreds of millions of dollars spent on political advocacy make him a great man, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/31 "2014-06-06T17:30:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The Kochs are also in favor of gay marriage, ending the drug war, and were opposed to the Iraq war. Although for some reason they were a little quieter about that they are about Tea Party issues today. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/32 "2014-06-06T17:35:21Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > the shrill attacks coming from Harry Reid and others. Good, get the well poisoned right up front. Saves time that way. > [@](#): > > The prime reason they are ‘monsters’ now is that they happen to disagree with Obamacare and the broad sweep of new regulations Obama has been implementing. No. It isn’t a matter of honest disagreement about philosophy. It’s about simple truth vs. lies, and about how belief in those lies hurts us all. Can you point to any significant amount of recent criticism that isn’t based on their denialist lies? > [@](#): > > unlike George Soros, whose hundreds of millions of dollars spent on political advocacy make him a great man, apparently. And finish with more well poisoning, in case anyone might have forgotten. Good post structure there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/33 "2014-06-06T17:39:11Z")
[Probably.](http://www.salon.com/2014/06/06/libertarians_learn_a_hard_lesson_murray_rothbards_spat_with_charles_koch/) > [@](#): > > This is all well known wingnut history, but Shulman uncovers some additional dirt that sheds important light on how the Kochs operate. In the late 80s the four Koch brothers got into a very messy legal battle over control of the family foundation. As is so often the case with family fights, it was a bloody fight. Rothbard was called upon by the two obscure brothers, Bill and Frederick, to be deposed on their behalf. Shulman writes that in a summary of that deposition old Murray makes some rather interesting claims about Charles Koch: > > > [@](#): > > > > [He]involves himself in the minutest details related to the non-profit foundations with which he is associated…. He insists on personally approving even the minutest matters, such as $100 grants, stationery design and color of offices.” Rothbard contended that Charles would go “to any end to acquire/retain control over the nonprofit foundations with which he is associated” and “considers himself above the law.” > > And the economist further alleged: > > > [@](#): > > > > Charles Koch has a practice of misusing nonprofit foundations for his own personal ends. Charles Koch wants absolute control of the non-profit foundations, but wants to be able to spend other people’s money not his own. He wants to spend that money on things that will enhance his personal image and goals, even it these expenditures are not consistent with the publicly stated goals of the foundation. Amongst other things, Charles Koch uses his involvement with non-profit foundations to aquire access to, and respect from, influential people in government and elsewhere. All in all, it’s probably safer to turn down his money. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/34 "2014-06-06T18:03:28Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The Kochs are also in favor of gay marriage, ending the drug war, and were opposed to the Iraq war. Really? How many millions of dollars have the Kochs given to marriage equality organizations, or pro-gay rights political candidates? > [@](#): > > The prime reason they are ‘monsters’ now is that they happen to disagree with Obamacare and the broad sweep of new regulations Obama has been implementing. That makes them a problem for the current administration, which of course makes them enemies of mankind - unlike George Soros, whose hundreds of millions of dollars spent on political advocacy make him a great man, apparently. Opposing Obamacare just makes them kind of dicks. What makes them monsters is their climate change denialism. Say what you like about George Soros, he’s never been responsible for imperiling the survival of the human race. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/35 "2014-06-06T18:05:33Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > they are huge polluters > [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > , while polluting as much as they do, knowing what they must know, makes them look like the worst capitalist future destroying assholes imaginable. Yet, their companies continue to win numerous EPA awards and on the _polluting scale_ they are way below Dupont, Dow, Exxon, etc. And all of the releases that are made by their companies are permitted by the Federal and State agencies that regulate them. When you make gasoline and paper products it’s impossible to do so without some form of air emissions, which are controlled by various state and federal agencies. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/36 "2014-06-06T18:14:13Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Yet, their companies continue to win numerous EPA awards and on the _polluting scale_ they are way below Dupont, Dow, Exxon, etc. And all of the releases that are made by their companies are permitted by the Federal and State agencies that regulate them. When you make gasoline and paper products it’s impossible to do so without some form of air emissions, which are controlled by various state and federal agencies. And they pay lots and lots of money to keep those regulations as favorable to them as they can manage. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/37 "2014-06-06T18:17:51Z")
From the right I’ve heard “whining” and “shrill”-how about a “screaming” for the trifecta, guys? Strings can take many forms. Will the UNCF be less inclined to oppose projects the Koch brothers fund? Will there be a huge public ceremony to hand off the check? Do they have any say whatsoever in which students will merit the scholarships? Are there unpublicized promises for more money down the line if students are steered toward colleges and universities that the Koch bros find more “friendly” towards the agendas they push? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/38 "2014-06-06T18:28:33Z")
From the OP’s link > [@](#): > > Scholarship recipients in the new “UNCF/Koch Scholars Program” are to be exemplary students interested in how the study of entrepreneurship, economics and innovation contributes to overall well-being. They must attend one of UNCF’s 37-member private historically black colleges and universities or one of the 250 colleges and universities where the Charles Koch Foundation has an existing program. They will attend an annual summit, have mentorship opportunities and have the ability to participate in an online community. it seems as if there is small bit of steering by the Kochs as to what these students might be learning with that scholarship money. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/39 "2014-06-06T18:30:38Z")
[Why yes, there might be:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_activities_of_the_Koch_brothers#Educational_grants) > [@](#): > > In 2011, the Charles G. Koch foundation made a grant of $1.5 million to Florida State University (FSU) in exchange for allowing the foundation, via an advisory committee,[56] to approve hiring decisions in the university’s economics department for a program that promotes “political economy and free enterprise”. The foundation also sought to have the university create a class called Market Ethics: The Vices, Virtues, and Values of Capitalism. Required reading for the class would include books by Ayn Rand. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199/40 "2014-06-06T18:31:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > From the OP’s link it seems as if there is small bit of steering by the Kochs as to what these students might be learning with that scholarship money. Which is par for the course when it comes to scholarship programs. Not all of them, no, but there are plenty of scholarships available to students who only study in certain programs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-united-negro-college-fund-turn-down-the-gift-from-the-koch-brothers/690199.md?page=3)