# Should the US assist Matthew Miller in North Korea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 15, 2014, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569 "2014-09-15T15:57:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/21 "2014-09-16T01:35:22Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I have an extremely limited amount of sympathy for those who travel to foreign lands, break their laws, and then expect to get saved because “I’m an American!” I kind of felt the same way with those three hikers along the Iraq-Iran border. I found myself understanding why Iran thought they might be spies. Just because their cover story seemed so ridiculous. “We’re three Americans hiking in war-torn country along a famously hostile border _for fun_!” ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/22 "2014-09-16T02:08:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This, though I’d go further and say we shouldn’t make anything but minor concessions to secure his release. I’m all for trying strongly trying to get all three of them released, including the gentleman who apparently left a Bible in a rest room. If Jimmy Carter, who has succeeded at this kind of thing before, is well enough to go, that would be great. However, I can’t see making even minor policy concessions. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/23 "2014-09-16T02:09:47Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/24 "2014-09-16T02:14:56Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > I kind of felt the same way with those three hikers along the Iraq-Iran border. I found myself understanding why Iran thought they might be spies. Just because their cover story seemed so ridiculous. > > “We’re three Americans hiking in war-torn country along a famously hostile border _for fun_!” They lived nearby, and decided to take a road trip with a visiting friend. Iraqi Kurdistan was at the time peaceful and quite friendly to Americans. For expats in the region wanting to make a short road trip, it would be an attractive choice. ---
**Author:** ![KarlGauss](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/karlgauss/32/3713_2.png) [@KarlGauss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarlGauss)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/25 "2014-09-16T02:17:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > For all we know this guy could be emotionally unbalanced. This. I’d go so far as to presume that this young guy _is_ “emotionally unbalanced”. He needs help not hard labour (especially not in NK). ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/26 "2014-09-16T05:21:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > So when the North Koreans say they invented their own smartphone, everyone laughs; when Uncle Kim shot a 36 on his first round of golf ever,… Well, he did much better on the second hole. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/27 "2014-09-16T10:48:34Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I see no particular reason to believe the charges are trumped up in this case. Just because the North Korean regime is nasty, it does not follow that nobody commits real crimes there, and this guy certainly seems to have been behaving very strangely. I think we generally consider political crimes to be “trumped up charges.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/28 "2014-09-16T10:52:45Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > What about those who _allegedly_ did those things? I would not have much time for a person who did what Bowe Bergdahl was accused of, but I certainly wanted him to get the benefit of the doubt until we could make sure he did them. I’d say that the difference here is that a soldier goes to war with the understanding that if he’s captured or lost behind enemy lines, the US will move Heaven and Earth to ensure that he’s not left behind. A civilian has no such assurance, nor should they - it’s not feasible or desirable for the US government to become a global 911 service for every American who gets into trouble overseas, especially when it involves sneaking into a country the US is kinda-sorta at war with and expressing his desire to defect to. If Jimmy Carter or Dennis Rodman can talk Kim into letting him go, so be it, but I’m against any concessions or ransom for his release. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/29 "2014-09-16T12:44:36Z")
> [@KarlGauss](#): > > This. > > I’d go so far as to presume that this young guy _is_ “emotionally unbalanced”. He needs help not hard labour (especially not in NK). We would do well to help the _already_ diagnosed emotionally unbalanced people in our own prisons. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/30 "2014-09-16T13:02:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > …it’s not feasible or desirable for the US government to become a global 911 service for every American who gets into trouble overseas, especially when it involves sneaking into a country the US is kinda-sorta at war with and expressing his desire to defect to. I will simply echo **Ravenman** ’s point, since he phrased it much better than I could have: what makes you think the North Koreans are telling the truth? Miller has confirmed part of their story but for all we know he may have done so under the threat of torture. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/31 "2014-09-16T13:05:01Z")
The trouble being we already traded for that Bergdahl dolt, and now the family of every dimwit wandering the Third World with a “Kick Me Hard” sign taped to his ass wants the same consideration. This guy is nucking futs. In NK he’ll fit right in. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/32 "2014-09-16T14:30:28Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The trouble being we already traded for that Bergdahl dolt, and now the family of every dimwit wandering the Third World with a “Kick Me Hard” sign taped to his ass wants the same consideration. > > This guy is nucking futs. In NK he’ll fit right in. > > Regards, > Shodan O.K., we’ve got a problem here. That is _twice_ today we’ve been in total agreement, and this has got to stop. 😃 Seriously, North Korea’s policies aren’t exactly a state secret, so he knew what he was getting into. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/33 "2014-09-16T15:32:14Z")
According to the CNN video linked in the OP there are currently 3 US citizens in similar circumstances, and that this is a way for the NKs to extort a high level meeting with the US on NK soil. While I agree that if the guy really did go there and rip up his visa, as for asylum and then commit a crime to deliberately attempt to stay in NK he should get what he wants, I’m not exactly willing to take the NKs word for, well, anything. I mean, they don’t exactly have a good track record for telling the truth, and trumped up charges are sort of the de facto position for them for decades now. The US should be cautious here, but I think a dialogue to see what it is the NKs really are after (my WAG: food and more economic aid/hard currency) wouldn’t hurt in all 3 of the cases indicated in the CNN video wouldn’t hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/34 "2014-09-16T15:48:29Z")
Miller brought it on himself by disparaging the boot. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/35 "2014-09-16T15:52:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Miller brought it on himself by disparaging the boot. Well, it _is_ a bootable offense and all… ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/36 "2014-09-16T17:44:15Z")
> [@XT](#): > > According to the CNN video linked in the OP there are currently 3 US citizens in similar circumstances, and that this is a way for the NKs to extort a high level meeting with the US on NK soil. While I agree that if the guy really did go there and rip up his visa, as for asylum and then commit a crime to deliberately attempt to stay in NK he should get what he wants, I’m not exactly willing to take the NKs word for, well, anything. I mean, they don’t exactly have a good track record for telling the truth, and trumped up charges are sort of the de facto position for them for decades now. > > The US should be cautious here, but I think a dialogue to see what it is the NKs really are after (my WAG: food and more economic aid/hard currency) wouldn’t hurt in all 3 of the cases indicated in the CNN video wouldn’t hurt. Sorry, I would never do the tourist thing to a country that was at best adversarial to the US … just like I would never do the tourist thing to a country we are actively at war with. You get what you deserve. [URL=“[http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/](http://www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/)”] ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/37 "2014-09-16T18:48:15Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > They lived nearby, and decided to take a road trip with a visiting friend. Iraqi Kurdistan was at the time peaceful and quite friendly to Americans. For expats in the region wanting to make a short road trip, it would be an attractive choice. Yeah, I know they weren’t really spies. But I also understood why Iran might’ve been skeptical of their reasons for being near the border. Then again, you could say if they were truly CIA spies, they’d have a much better story 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/38 "2014-09-16T19:12:49Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Nobody deserves hard labor in a North Korean prison. Even accepting the North Korean version of events, and he really did want to live in a paradise of juche, I take some pity on whelps who have no idea what they are getting themselves into with respect to horrible authoritarian states. > > The US shouldn’t bend over for any extortion-like demands, but we should do what we can to get him released. > > ETA: For all we know this guy could be emotionally unbalanced. One surely has to be either a die-hard ideologue or simply touched in the head to fly to Pyongyang to seek asylum. I agree that no one deserves this. On the other hand, while the people of North Korea were probably complicit in the creation of the North Korean state several decades ago, I think it’s fair to say that any new Koreans since then were born into it, and never had any choice in the matter. They’re all basically less deserving of their fate than Miller is. And among those who were complicit and are still alive (if any), I’m sure that they’ve all long-since repented and atoned for it. So basically, in North Korea, everyone who lives there is more deserving of being freed from North Korea than Miller. He’s last on the list of those who need to be rescued. And yes, he’s probably a bit crazy. But I’m not a big opponent of the Darwin awards. What does saving him and bringing him back to the US add to our genetic legacy or our society? Lee Harvey Oswald was just this sort of nutbag, except he fantasized about the USSR. I’m just as happy without. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I will simply echo **Ravenman** ’s point, since he phrased it much better than I could have: what makes you think the North Koreans are telling the truth? Miller has confirmed part of their story but for all we know he may have done so under the threat of torture. It seems like an odd story for them to make up. “Hello, we captured a moron. A crazy, annoying moron. Any chance you want him back?” It seems preferable to call him a spy or something, if you want to get the US to care about their guy. And, I imagine that the US media has checked out the guy’s past and talked to his parents. Probably we would have heard from them if all of the secondary sources were saying that this was a load of BS. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/39 "2014-09-16T19:15:47Z")
There is a small online community of these guys(everyone I have seen has been male) North Korea wannabe defectors and immigrants, a few years ago one caused a scene at a NK embassy I recall. No I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2014, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569/40 "2014-09-16T19:38:49Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > And yes, he’s probably a bit crazy. But I’m not a big opponent of the Darwin awards. What does saving him and bringing him back to the US add to our genetic legacy or our society? It seems like a really easy thing to just laugh about Darwin Awards and whatnot, but I truly hope that anyone who makes such cracks never has to have an experience where a loved one has a lapse of judgment, or even a significant medical condition, which causes a tragic situation. For example, it’s easy to laugh at the guy who lost a bunch of money in some obvious con-job, like maybe a Nigerian email scam or something. What an idiot, right? But you might feel differently if that guy were your father, for example, who was suffering from age-related dementia, and the loss of his savings leads to a crisis for your family on how to take care of someone who obviously cannot take care of themselves. My main point here is simple: if given a choice between making jokes about those in dire straits, or choosing to exercise some compassion, I think more people doing the latter would lead to a better world. There’s a big difference between those who understand that poor behavior leads to bad consequences and those who revel in it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-assist-matthew-miller-in-north-korea/698569.md?page=3)