# Should the US Have a 40-Hr. Week/8 Hr. Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613 "2011-05-12T03:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/41 "2011-05-13T02:47:46Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > No one denies that burnout can occur, but you still haven’t backed up the claim that “After 10 hours the work is practically worthless.” There is an enormous difference between a 10/5 week and a 12/7 one. Past 12 hours you’re likely to start cutting into sleep, eating, hygiene, etc.–things with known negative effects from deprivation–but 10 hours doesn’t really carry that risk. [http://cmdept.unl.edu/drb/Reading/overtime2.htm](http://cmdept.unl.edu/drb/Reading/overtime2.htm) Here is a pretty comprehensive study on several industries. Yes OT work diminishes rapidly in quality. Hire more workers and maintain or improve your quality. The study I originally referred to was done internally at GM. They gave it to us in a conference office and it was clear that it was for our eyes only. I remember":do not distribute" on each sheet. It also was over 30 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/42 "2011-05-13T04:47:32Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Sorry but you are wrong if you think this applies to **all** workers. > > As has already been mentioned, a 40 hour work week only applies to those paid on an hourly basis. Salaried employees can be required to work an unlimited number of hours every week. Most states limit how many salaried employees a business can have to avoid abuse with this, ususally requiring a one day off in seven days for salaried employees. The rules vary by state. I should have said all non exempt employees. The 40 hour work week also applies to non exempt salaried employees. Being salaried does not make an employee exempt. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/43 "2011-05-13T13:21:04Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The main problem is that Engineers are being forced to work 2,500, 3,000, or more hours per year for the pay and benefits of 2,080. Where are you getting the idea that your employment contract states that your pay is for 2,080 hrs/yr? ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/44 "2011-05-13T13:59:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Where are you getting the idea that your employment contract states that your pay is for 2,080 hrs/yr? There are things called “reasonable expectations”. It’s clear that some of us have different values for “reasonable” here. Me? My employment contract DOES say 2080 hours/yr, because that’s sane. Are you saying that you honestly think that there is a basic expectation from the vast majority of workers that the work year is anything OTHER than 2080 hours? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/45 "2011-05-13T14:07:40Z")
All I’m going to add is that if you want another stupid law for me to break, go ahead and enact this one. :rolleyes: I work from 8-6 and, many times, will come back to work @ 9pm to do a number of long-term planning things that don’t get done in the workaday rush (or I will work from my home computer). I also will come in during the weekends to “get some things done”. This is my preference and, despite the GM study that Gonzo produced, lots of good work gets done despite the horror of working more than 8 hours a day. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/46 "2011-05-13T14:13:27Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Absolutely not. That would be an absurd restriction on personal freedom. > > I generally work at least a 60 hour week because, despite being an employee, I own part of the company I work for and I have an incentive to see it succeed. If I’m especially productive sometimes I will work a 40-hour week, or less, but usually I get sidetracked by enough bullshit that it takes 60 hours to actually get everything done. > > I certainly have not given up the “right” to rest and leisure - I can always quit this job and find another one that is less demanding. I just choose not to. > > Some people probably don’t like the idea of having to compete in the job market with people who choose to work more than 40 hours a week. The solution to their problem is to stop being a bunch of lazy shits, not impose limits on how other people can conduct their business. > > And I really don’t give a shit what they do in Europe. If you think it’s that much better you are welcome to move to Europe yourself, or start a business in the US that follows European labor practices. See how well you do. > > My cursory research indicates you are incorrect in any case. Some European countries have a mandatory 48-hour workweek, according to Wikipedia: [Working time - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time#Differences_among_countries) But this is not at all universal among “major industrialized countries” - Japan and Korea have no national limits, and tend to work _longer_ hours than US workers. Let’s not even mention China. Yeah, I bet you envy the hell out of those slave laborers in China! And you won’t have anyone restricting your right to spend all your waking hours working! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/47 "2011-05-13T14:23:44Z")
> [@Kolak\_of\_Twilo](#): > > Sorry but you are wrong if you think this applies to **all** workers. > > As has already been mentioned, a 40 hour work week only applies to those paid on an hourly basis. Salaried employees can be required to work an unlimited number of hours every week. Most states limit how many salaried employees a business can have to avoid abuse with this, ususally requiring a one day off in seven days for salaried employees. The rules vary by state. yeah, we need to fix that. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/48 "2011-05-13T14:26:18Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The main problem is that Engineers are being forced to work 2,500, 3,000, or more hours per year for the pay and benefits of 2,080. They should switch and be lawyers… at least ther, there’s the potential of promotion to partner, where you can leech off the profit earned by that 3000 hours per year of your underlings. And I’m pretty irritated by \*\* Absolute’s\*\* comment: > [@](#): > > Some people probably don’t like the idea of having to compete in the job market with people who choose to work more than 40 hours a week. The solution to their problem is to stop being a bunch of lazy shits, not impose limits on how other people can conduct their business. I have a son on the way, and I’ll be damned if I miss his games and recitals, etc… for work. Six months later I won’t recall what I may have supposed to have been working on, but he and I would remember me skipping his event for it. I’m not going to do that, and I’m not a “lazy shit” for it either. I’m not a workaholic asshole, is what the truth is. ---
**Author:** ![Hambil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hambil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hambil)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/49 "2011-05-13T14:26:46Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > A friend of mine worked in Colorado as a computer engineer. (Or whatever the term is nowadays.) > > He’d saunter in at 9:30 and leave at 3:30. That’s when he got paid hourly. When he went to salary, they gave him a ton of benefits. So he’d clock in at 8 and leave at 3:30 unless something major was going on. In shorts/jeans/t shirt/whatever, of course. (: > > He worked from home a lot. Plenty of times he’d have a conference call on a Monday because he’d left for the weekend and everyone was fine with it. So long as the stuff got done…sigh. Sounds sweet huh? Next time you talk to him ask him about something called ‘crunch time’. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/50 "2011-05-13T14:30:57Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Shit, I’m still unemployed! When I DO get a new full time job, I plan to get a part time job too just to make up the money I didn’t have the chance to make for two years! 😃 > > As far as the alleged leisurely work schedules that others are used to in other places, aren’t their paycheck deductions a lot more? Upwards of 30 - 40%? If so, I’ll stay with the 40 hour week / 21% deduction. You’re unemployed! You’ll take however few hours of work employers hand out and like it, buddy! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/51 "2011-05-13T14:38:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I made out just fine in my Silicon Valley job, and I was neither early nor lucky. There are lots of people doing the same today. > > As for the OP, many companies have instituted 4-day work weeks, often at the request of the employees, with a longer day, but 3 days off a week instead of 2. It’s very popular. I don’t like the idea of the government micro managing this sort of stuff, especially at the federal level. Because it’s always better to be controlled by corporations than government? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/52 "2011-05-13T14:45:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Do whatever you want, just don’t ruin things for the rest of us. Maybe you guys need to organize a union. John Mace advocating unionization!!! :eek: /me runs to Hell to check weather conditions … ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/53 "2011-05-13T14:59:25Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > I think it is important to have a baseline and 40hours/week seems like a good number. I suppose it could be a bit higher or lower, but the important point is that it is there at all as a standard so the guy who works 60/week knows that he should be compensated for such work and the guy asked to work 90/week knows it is unreasonable. > Without a standard baseline, it is harder to see where you stand with respect to everyone else. > > Also, I think the argument is that if you have a bunch of people working 80hours per week, then you should be _hiring more people_. I know this is easier said than done, but from a political point of view, I can see that as a motivating reason for a 40hr/week law. Ah, at last we get to the point! We keep reading in the news about how hiring and middle class incomes remaining flat in the US because productivity has gone up! One worker now does the work of 1.5 workers! And here we have stories about workers forced to work 60 hours a week, 20 of it essentially unpaid! My my my! What a coincidence! Why it seems to me that a severe crackdown on this practice might force employers to you know … hire people … and since the unpaid overtime is among salaried workers mostly, you have to figure, for higher-wage jobs. Could cut way back on unemployment and raise wages in general, both at the same time! Good things! Unless you’re a greedy, evil employer or a workaholic. In which case … fuck you, you’re messing the whole economy up, assholes! I’m assuming this solution is too reasonable to be accepted in America … ---
**Author:** ![Hambil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hambil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hambil)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/54 "2011-05-13T15:09:16Z")
It’s more insidious than just saying “you must work a 60+ hour week”. It’s more like “finish this project by this date or you get ‘laid off’” (fired without the company having to deal with human resources issues) for failing. Of course, the only way to meet the deadline is to work massive unpaid OT. But, it’s your ‘choice’. You can ‘choose’ to fail at your job. ---
**Author:** ![CPomeroy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ed8c4c/32.png) [@CPomeroy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CPomeroy)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/55 "2011-05-13T15:32:24Z")
I am an engineer that works for a consulting company and I have always been compensated for every hour I work (straight time). The company is billing the clients, so I would not accept not being payed as well. I know not all companies do this, but I have always been able to find one to hire me that does. I also get bonuses and profit sharing based on company performance, so I am motivated to work very hard when necessary to ensure the successful completion of projects. My take is that the government should stay out of mandating employment conditions for exempt employees and they should be free to negotiate whatever terms they want. I think the current rules for hourly workers are appropriate and should be enforced. There is much more potential for abuse with less skilled workers who are typically payed hourly. I know skilled craftspeople are also payed hourly, but they are probably not the ones that really need protecting. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/56 "2011-05-13T15:34:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > You’re unemployed! You’ll take however few hours of work employers hand out and like it, buddy! He can not get a job in this economy, but somehow thinks he can get 2 later? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/57 "2011-05-13T16:22:26Z")
> [@CPomeroy](#): > > I am an engineer that works for a consulting company and I have always been compensated for every hour I work (straight time). The company is billing the clients, so I would not accept not being payed as well. I know not all companies do this, but I have always been able to find one to hire me that does. I also get bonuses and profit sharing based on company performance, so I am motivated to work very hard when necessary to ensure the successful completion of projects. > > My take is that the government should stay out of mandating employment conditions for exempt employees and they should be free to negotiate whatever terms they want. I think the current rules for hourly workers are appropriate and should be enforced. There is much more potential for abuse with less skilled workers who are typically payed hourly. I know skilled craftspeople are also payed hourly, but they are probably not the ones that really need protecting. Basically your post boils down to, ‘I got mine Jack, fuck you.’ However, if taking advantage of salaried workers for unpaid work is commonplace, you don’t have much of a voice here. So … back atcha! ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/58 "2011-05-13T16:23:35Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > He can not get a job in this economy, but somehow thinks he can get 2 later? An optimist! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/59 "2011-05-13T16:31:04Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I work from 8-6 and, many times, will come back to work @ 9pm to do a number of long-term planning things that don’t get done in the workaday rush (or I will work from my home computer). I also will come in during the weekends to “get some things done”. > > This is \*\*my preference \*\* The problem is how to distinguish workaholics like you from people like, well, my entire company last job–none of whom wanted to work constant 80-hour weeks, but with the job market in collapse had no recourse but to sacrifice their entire lives on the altar of that company or get fired. (well, then they got fired anyway, when the CEO decided to recoup his investment and sell to a larger firm in the same market). ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/60 "2011-05-13T17:23:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s not about a sprinkling of afternoons off. It’s about not punching a clock and not working a set schedule. What - if you work a 40-hour week, that also implies punching a clock and working a set schedule? This must be new. I’ve worked schedules with set numbers of hours, both in the private and public spheres, but the last time I punched a clock was when I was working as a security guard. And in my soft government job, _which_ hours you work are pretty flexible, even though the _number_ of hours is fixed. > [@](#): > > When you’re hired as an exempt employee, you’re not being hired to work a 40 hour week. If that’s what you want, you should set yourself up as a contract worker. When you say you want to be paid by the hour, you are saying you don’t want to be seen as someone who will advance through the ranks. > > It’s not free overtime, but if you really feel it is, convince your boss to hire you as a contract employee or form a union with your fellow workers. Look, you’re missing the point here. It doesn’t matter whether the computation starts from 40 hours, or zero: the incentive is for your boss to get as much work out of you as he possibly can. If you can typically get your work done in 50 hours a week, his incentive is to give you some more. Ditto 60, or 70, or whatever, until you start showing signs of an approaching nervous breakdown. I suppose I could say he’s paying you a full salary for zero hours, so he’s got an incentive to maximize the number of hours of work he can get out of you in return for that salary. Same difference. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613.md?page=4)