# Should the US Have a 40-Hr. Week/8 Hr. Day? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 12, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613 "2011-05-12T03:26:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/61 "2011-05-13T17:25:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I don’t understand the second sentence in the second paragraph. OK, let’s pretend a year has 50 weeks, just for ease of arithmetic. If you make $60k/year, that’s $30/hour. Time and a half is $45/hour. Under my bright idea, everybody making up to $60k would get time and a half over 40 hours; everybody making more would get paid $45/hour over 40 hours. That’s all. > [@](#): > > You are trying to completely revamp the way people are paid in the US, when that is the way it is done everywhere in the developed world. Can you see that I might be a little skeptical of the government forcing every company to do something that no company has ever had to do anywhere in the world, ever? This is not a minor tweak of the system, although I’m not claiming you are saying it is. It’s just a huge change, and I don’t see what problem we are trying to solve. What problem am I trying to solve? Good question. First problem I’m trying to solve: Most people work to live, rather than the other way around. The expectation ought to be that an employee gets a certain number of hours each week away from the job, and when the company wants some of those hours, it has to pay over and above the base rate for that time. I think the number and circumstances of employees exempted from this expectation ought to be highly circumscribed. Second problem I’m trying to solve: defining ‘exempt employees’ by supervisory or professional status is easily gamed. When shift supervisors at McDonalds are categorized as exempt, we’ve got a problem. Compensation ought to be the measure. Third problem I’m trying to solve: if compensation is the measure, then having a salary line where everyone below the line gets time and a half for OT, but employees above the line don’t, creates some really awkward disincentives: if everybody making less than $60,000 gets time and a half for overtime, and everyone above it is exempt,’ nobody would want to be making just over $60K. So to solve those three problems, there are two solutions: one is time and a half for _everyone_ over 40 hours, or a phase-out of some sort as income escalates. > [@](#): > > Can you see that I might be a little skeptical of the government forcing every company to do something that no company has ever had to do anywhere in the world, ever? This isn’t some ‘nobody has ever done this before’ idea. The U.S. government does something like this, IIRC - nonexempt employees over a GS-10 get paid for OT at the GS-10 rate, or some such. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/62 "2011-05-13T17:31:21Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > All I’m going to add is that if you want another stupid law for me to break, go ahead and enact this one. :rolleyes: > > I work from 8-6 and, many times, will come back to work @ 9pm to do a number of long-term planning things that don’t get done in the workaday rush (or I will work from my home computer). I also will come in during the weekends to “get some things done”. > > This is my preference and, despite the GM study that Gonzo produced, lots of good work gets done despite the horror of working more than 8 hours a day. It’s great that that’s your preference. And you know what? If time and a half over 40 hours is mandated for everyone, chances are that you’ll still be able to work unpaid OT like this if you really want to. You’d likely have to be more surreptitious about it, but few companies are going to keep a dragnet out there to catch and penalize people working a few extra hours. OTOH, a great many people out there are having to work 50, 60, 70 hour weeks without any real choice in the matter, and no extra compensation for the extra time. Any reasonable set of priorities places their plight somewhat higher than your potential plight. If you’d care to make an argument that those priorities aren’t reasonable, go for it. ---
**Author:** ![Hambil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3be4f8/32.png) [@Hambil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hambil)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/63 "2011-05-13T17:41:53Z")
Hmmmm… As a former exempt employee making well over $60k, I am not sure I agree with that cut-off. It’s easy to think that money buys choices, but that’s not always directly true. I had a heart attack at age 40 (with no family history) and I contribute a large part of the reason (but still only part of the reason) to 20 years of high stress, deadline driven, 60-80 hour work weeks. In the Internet Startup world, having a lot of short jobs (1-3 years) is not at all uncommon. Many companies just go out of business. So I also have the wonderful luck of having said heart attack between jobs (I had been off work less than a month and already had passed the interview process at a new company and was going to be going in and signing the papers to become an employee in a week or so). Meaning - I had no health insurance. In an instant, all my savings, gone. My ability to go back to work in the same high stress environment, gone. Five years later I am now living under the poverty level, even though I still have the skills to get a job easily (except it would kill me - minor deterrent). I’m actually not unhappy, or complaining, or whatever; I’m just pointing out that the assumption that a well paid professional doesn’t need some rights and protection, and only ‘blue collar’ workers need unions, is in my opinion over-reaching. As always, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/64 "2011-05-13T18:21:18Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > John Mace advocating unionization!!! :eek: > > /me runs to Hell to check weather conditions … I’m a strong believer in unions and have advocated for them many, many times on this MB. Unions are a key part of any free enterprise system. For libertarians, “free” doesn’t apply only to the company owners. It’s a common misunderstanding on this MB that libertarians would oppose unions. We oppose mandated unions, but are 100% behind any voluntary unions that people can put together as long as they don’t drag the government in to grant them special favors. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/65 "2011-05-13T20:38:44Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > This is my preference and, despite the GM study that Gonzo produced, lots of good work gets done despite the horror of working more than 8 hours a day. But why? Isn’t there something non work-related that you’d rather be doing in those other 16 hours a day? I know that I sure have plenty of other things I’d rather be doing. And… considering that it doesn’t seem to matter how well I do my job or how many hours I work; I get the same pay over a 3 year period (well 1% raise) , I see no point in working more than a 40 hour week. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/66 "2011-05-13T20:38:46Z")
[nitpick] 2080 work hours is 40 hours per week for 52 weeks. Most jobs include at least 2 weeks vacation, and I think you’ll find that most people (and most jobs) consider 2000 hours worked per year to be the norm. [nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/67 "2011-05-13T20:59:32Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > [nitpick] > > 2080 work hours is 40 hours per week for 52 weeks. Most jobs include at least 2 weeks vacation, and I think you’ll find that most people (and most jobs) consider 2000 hours worked per year to be the norm. > > [nitpick] Acceptable nitpick–although I’m technically “paid” for my vacation hours, and bill them in the same manner as my normal hours (with a different project title) 😛 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/68 "2011-05-13T22:58:17Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I get the same pay over a 3 year period (well 1% raise) , I see no point in working more than a 40 hour week. Maybe that’s why you only got a 1% raise. ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/69 "2011-05-14T05:41:57Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > All I’m going to add is that if you want another stupid law for me to break, go ahead and enact this one. :rolleyes: > > I work from 8-6 and, many times, will come back to work @ 9pm to do a number of long-term planning things that don’t get done in the workaday rush (or I will work from my home computer). I also will come in during the weekends to “get some things done”. > > This is my preference and, despite the GM study that Gonzo produced, lots of good work gets done despite the horror of working more than 8 hours a day. Wow! You have a job, to bad you do not have a life. By 8-6 I assume you mean working 6 days a week. And you work at home and go back in for more time. Got a friend who shipped between 20 and 30 years. Right now he is dealing with angry daughters who fell like he was not there for them when they were growing up. At iyr 49th reunion one of my classmates wife aask my wife how long I had shiped out. When my wife told her that I had not shipped out since 1971 the other wife made the comment, “oh, you have a good marrage.” Not being there for your family can be very expensive. Oh by the way if you are not truly an exempt employee and are not being paid for all hours worked you are not breaking the law, your employeer is. And you may be putting them in a hard spot. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/70 "2011-05-14T13:28:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > It’s great that that’s your preference. And you know what? If time and a half over 40 hours is mandated for everyone, chances are that you’ll still be able to work unpaid OT like this if you really want to. You’d likely have to be more surreptitious about it, but few companies are going to keep a dragnet out there to catch and penalize people working a few extra hours. > > OTOH, a great many people out there are having to work 50, 60, 70 hour weeks without any real choice in the matter, and no extra compensation for the extra time. Any reasonable set of priorities places their plight somewhat higher than your potential plight. If you’d care to make an argument that those priorities aren’t reasonable, go for it. But then you make no progress. I work for a company where no one has to work more than about 35 hours. But many people CHOOSE to work more the 35 hours. When the downturns hit, the people with the perceived highest value - who are often those emailing and attending meetings at 10pm - are usually the ones with the job. The ones skating are the first ones to go. So while you can say “no one needs to work more than 40 hours” - you’ll still have the “mandatory” overtime - just a delay. With RIFs being a common way for corporations to manage their labor, the fear of underworking is going to accomplish the same thing. Unless you throw in statistical analysis so that you can sue so that you have affirmative action for the non-workaholic, you aren’t going to have any sort of enforceable system and won’t work change. (Salaried - have worked 40 hour workweeks since I had kids and put my foot down - haven’t suffered myself - but haven’t been promoted to my abilities either - don’t want to, that would mean stepping up my commitment.) ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/71 "2011-05-14T15:17:56Z")
> [@Hambil](#): > > Hmmmm… As a former exempt employee making well over $60k, I am not sure I agree with that cut-off. The $60K was strictly hypothetical. I just didn’t want to get into simultaneous arguments over whether a system that worked this way would make sense, _and_ whether the cutoff was in the right place. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/72 "2011-05-14T15:25:57Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > But then you make no progress. > > I work for a company where no one has to work more than about 35 hours. But many people CHOOSE to work more the 35 hours. When the downturns hit, the people with the perceived highest value - who are often those emailing and attending meetings at 10pm - are usually the ones with the job. The ones skating are the first ones to go. > > So while you can say “no one needs to work more than 40 hours” - you’ll still have the “mandatory” overtime - just a delay. > > With RIFs being a common way for corporations to manage their labor, the fear of underworking is going to accomplish the same thing. > > Unless you throw in statistical analysis so that you can sue so that you have affirmative action for the non-workaholic, you aren’t going to have any sort of enforceable system and won’t work change. > > (Salaried - have worked 40 hour workweeks since I had kids and put my foot down - haven’t suffered myself - but haven’t been promoted to my abilities either - don’t want to, that would mean stepping up my commitment.) Employers being what they are, there would probably have to be a vigorously enforced compliance mechanism. I’ve got no problem with that. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/73 "2011-05-14T19:41:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Studies show that from 8 hours to 10 the quality of work drops off noticeably from zero to 8. After 10 hours the work is practically worthless. Overtime does not pay in work quality. But longer hours eliminates paying for more secretarial work. parking place and numerous other business costs including unemployment and healthcare. > The work week should be 35 hours to get more people working. Yes, this is the issue that gets ignored the most, and it is the primary driving force for employers who force overtime. Overtime is, for the most part, a sign that you don’t have enough employees to get the job done and that you’re trying to cut corners by hiring less people. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/74 "2011-05-14T19:45:36Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Absolutely not. That would be an absurd restriction on personal freedom. > > I generally work at least a 60 hour week because, despite being an employee, I own part of the company I work for and I have an incentive to see it succeed. Lots of salaried employees do not own part of the company. Do you have stock options or profit sharing? Do your employees? > [@](#): > > Some people probably don’t like the idea of having to compete in the job market with people who choose to work more than 40 hours a week. The solution to their problem is to stop being a bunch of lazy shits, not impose limits on how other people can conduct their business. You’re intentionally ignoring the fact that employers force workers to do overtime on pain of being arbitrarily fired or laid off. Imposing limits prevents employers from imposing overtime just to cut corners. > [@](#): > > And I really don’t give a shit what they do in Europe. If you think it’s that much better you are welcome to move to Europe yourself, or start a business in the US that follows European labor practices. See how well you do. Wow, you sound like one of those managers in China. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/75 "2011-05-14T19:50:29Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Yes, this is the issue that gets ignored the most, and it is the primary driving force for employers who force overtime. > > Overtime is, for the most part, a sign that you don’t have enough employees to get the job done and that you’re trying to cut corners by hiring less people. Not everyone works in a widget factory where they can just shut the widget machine down at 5 and pick it up tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/76 "2011-05-14T19:53:00Z")
> [@Hambil](#): > > It’s more insidious than just saying “you must work a 60+ hour week”. It’s more like “finish this project by this date or you get ‘laid off’” (fired without the company having to deal with human resources issues) for failing. Of course, the only way to meet the deadline is to work massive unpaid OT. But, it’s your ‘choice’. You can ‘choose’ to fail at your job. Why does it have to be unpaid overtime? When I had engineering projects to do, I worked longer hours early so I could relax at the delivery date and be in position to make last minute changes. Other guys didn’t and I often had to help them make their dates . But i got paid. Poor management and scheduling should not just fall on the shoulders of the workers. If a company mis schedules, they should pay for it. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/77 "2011-05-14T19:56:03Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not everyone works in a widget factory where they can just shut the widget machine down at 5 and pick it up tomorrow. This is not just about widget machines. We overwork our air traffic control and airline pilots, too. It’s damned fortunate that one of them hasn’t brought a plane down recently because of fatigue. I have had a friend who was killed by an overworked fatigued long haul truck driver. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/78 "2011-05-14T19:57:15Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Poor management and scheduling should not just fall on the shoulders of the workers. If a company mis schedules, they should pay for it. ^^^ This. Epically. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/79 "2011-05-14T20:12:24Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > No way. I work in an industry that’s predicated on working hard with few breaks for a few months, then having significant time off. I like my job, I don’t mind working more than 40 hours a week at it some weeks, and I don’t want the government interfering in this way. Assuming you’re a seasonal worker, or perhaps a software designer (I’m given to understand crunch time in this field is CRUNCH whenever deadlines loom), most European nations have provisions for those - or they can require your employer to pay you more for the overtime, which is usually a result of poor management or rash executive decisions. But on the whole, individual business find ways to work within and around the laws. For example, whereas in France the 35h week used to be a thing, there was also a program set up so that employees willing to work 40, 42, 45+h weeks could turn these “overtime” hours into additional vacation days. Overtime in scare quotes because it was paid at the normal rate. Basically, if neither you nor your employer sees fit to complain about crunch time, then no fuss will ever be raised. It’s only when employers call for crunches without regards for the workers that trouble happens, and the law usually sides with the workers. On the whole, I reckon it’s better than the Anglo-Saxon system of “do what you’re told or you’re immediately FIRED !”, which opens a lot of unrealistic doors for what you can be told to do. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613/80 "2011-05-15T00:22:48Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > Not everyone works in a widget factory where they can just shut the widget machine down at 5 and pick it up tomorrow. > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > This is not just about widget machines. We overwork our air traffic control and airline pilots, too. It’s damned fortunate that one of them hasn’t brought a plane down recently because of fatigue. > > I have had a friend who was killed by an overworked fatigued long haul truck driver. There’s a middle ground somewhere between these two positions. Ultimately, any sane policy will address three things: 1. Some jobs require periodic Herculean efforts with off times, and some jobs require steady day-by-day output. Some job descriptions (mostly desk work) can tolerate longer work days on average than others (like factory work and truck driving). 2. There should be a balance between social life and work life, ideally reflected in a baseline amount of hours beyond which an employer can not require employees to go. (The 2080/yr or 40 hr/wk marks are generally accepted in popular parlance here but by all means cases could be made for different values) 3. Some employees will prefer to work hard for the baseline amount of hours and then go home to enjoy the fruits of their labor. Some employees have incentive or desire to work longer hours for more money or more corporate prestige–they should be allowed to do so. Employers prefer the highest productivity/quality-of-work possible with the lowest payroll. All three of these needs should be met. Personally, I prefer the idea of a system that removes the idea of “exempt” employees, such that every hour worked gets paid in some way–essentially, removing the idea of a “salaried” employee. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-have-a-40-hr-week-8-hr-day/581613.md?page=5)