# Should the US lower its immigration numbers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488 "2011-01-21T20:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/41 "2011-01-27T16:20:55Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > No, because it is immigration that maintains our standard of living. If you want to destroy us, put the squeeze on immigration. Conversely, if controlling immigration is all you care about, then go ahead and destroy the country, because that will hectic outcome anyway. ROTFLMAO!!! Aw, come on! It is Anglo-American culture which maintains our standard of living, and the more you undermine that culture by allowing floods of immigrants who have little or no desire to assimilate, the poorer our country will become. Jesus, how many unskilled laborers who can’t speak English do we need? It helps the rich by providing them with cheap labor, and it helps the lefties who expect to build a power base among the new immigrants, but for working people like me it’s a slow-motion disaster. Mass immigration may have been a boon in the nineteeth and early twentieth centuries, but it doesn’t follow that it will always be beneficial. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/42 "2011-01-27T16:44:31Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think you use the exact right word in your question: “do we need a million immigrants a year coming into America?” That’s not the right word. That’s not even a relevant word. The Indians didn’t _need_ a bunch of white people, did they? [QUOTE=Susanann] Exactly how does adding millions and millions of poor, unskilled, uneducated, illiterate immigrants from third world countries maintain our standard of living? [/QUOTE] It doesn’t. Now ask a question which isn’t a fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/43 "2011-01-27T17:11:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not the right word. That’s not even a relevant word. The Indians didn’t _need_ a bunch of white people, did they? Ha! Is this the best you can do? Really? Attempt to compare the settlement of a continent with the immigration policy of a nation? You did read the OP, right? You do know that the discussion is about the legal immigration policy of a country, right? And “need” is the exact right word, as a nation’s immigration policy should be designed to help it. Tell me, in what world should a nation set immigration policy that would be to it’s detriment? Other than Bizarro World, of course. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It doesn’t. Now ask a question which isn’t a fallacy. It’s not a fallacy. It’s just a question that makes you uncomfortable. Those two are not the same things. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/44 "2011-01-27T17:36:25Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Ha! Is this the best you can do? Really? Attempt to compare the settlement of a continent with the immigration policy of a nation? You did read the OP, right? You do know that the discussion is about the legal immigration policy of a country, right? And “need” is the exact right word, as a nation’s immigration policy should be designed to help it. Tell me, in what world should a nation set immigration policy that would be to it’s detriment? Other than Bizarro World, of course. Should we have intervened militarily in Europe in World War II? It didn’t help us, did it? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/45 "2011-01-27T17:53:57Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Should we have intervened militarily in Europe in World War II? It didn’t help us, did it? What the hell are you talking about? You may want to reread the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/46 "2011-01-27T17:56:13Z")
The OP is discussing immigration to the US in terms of its benefits to other countries, so perhaps _you_ should re-read the OP. I’m only address immigration in terms of its benefit to the US because _somebody_ thinks that’s all that matters. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/47 "2011-01-27T18:09:39Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The OP is discussing immigration to the US in terms of its benefits to other countries, so perhaps _you_ should re-read the OP. I’m only address immigration in terms of its benefit to the US because _somebody_ thinks that’s all that matters. Well, what the hell does the OP have to do with the settling of a continent and the U’S.'s military role in Europe during WWII? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/48 "2011-01-27T19:54:06Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Exactly how does adding millions and millions of poor, unskilled, uneducated, illiterate immigrants from third world countries maintain our standard of living? It doesn’t, it turns the US into a third world country. However, through shaming tactics it’s become difficult for otherwise sensible people to point this out. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/49 "2011-01-27T20:02:04Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Should we have intervened militarily in Europe in World War II? It didn’t help us, did it? It most certainly did, or at least it was seen that way in Washington. The Nazis were seen as both an immediate and a long term danger to the United States. You don’t think we were fighting to end the Holocaust or something, do you? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/50 "2011-01-27T20:06:06Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The OP is discussing immigration to the US in terms of its benefits to other countries, so perhaps _you_ should re-read the OP. I’m only address immigration in terms of its benefit to the US because _somebody_ thinks that’s all that matters. That is pretty much all that matters. We need to put our own interests first. You can be damn sure nobody else is going to put our interests ahead of theirs. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/51 "2011-01-27T20:15:08Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not the right word. That’s not even a relevant word. The Indians didn’t _need_ a bunch of white people, did they? So the American Indians should have just stepped quietly aside without resisting? They should simply have allowed themselves to be dispossessed without a struggle because they weren’t supposed to consider their own needs? Were they supposed to consider their claim to the land to be no more valid than the settlers? Are we supposed to follow their example or something? ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/52 "2011-01-27T22:17:42Z")
_Lower?_ Nah, we should raise our immigration numbers. We should also make naturalization much easier. More votes in the working class means more power outside the elite subculture to balance the neoliberal plutocrats. The plutocracy has power over the working class across borders. A working class that is nationalistic & divided by nation is unduly handicapped. The USA working class isn’t fighting for the well-being of the global working class because it’s distracted by nationalism. “Fight the real enemy,” might be too belligerent. But we do need to look at the real problems of wealth & poverty worldwide. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/53 "2011-01-27T22:29:09Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > _Lower?_ > > Nah, we should raise our immigration numbers. We should also make naturalization much easier. More votes in the working class means more power outside the elite subculture to balance the neoliberal plutocrats. > > The plutocracy has power over the working class across borders. A working class that is nationalistic & divided by nation is unduly handicapped. The USA working class isn’t fighting for the well-being of the global working class because it’s distracted by nationalism. > > “Fight the real enemy,” might be too belligerent. But we do need to look at the real problems of wealth & poverty worldwide. Yes, importing more working class workers will really help the working class 🙂 As someone mentioned above, African Americans are particularly displaced by low skill labour from south america. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/54 "2011-01-27T23:09:56Z")
> [@Lakai](#): > > do we need a million immigrants a year coming into America? I don’t see how that’s relevant. If someone wants to come here, why should they be prevented from doing so? If I want to move from one state in the US to another, that state can’t stop me even if it doesn’t “need” me. I don’t see why some people should deserve better opportunities just because of where they were born. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/55 "2011-01-27T23:26:11Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > I don’t see how that’s relevant. If someone wants to come here, why should they be prevented from doing so? If I want to move from one state in the US to another, that state can’t stop me even if it doesn’t “need” me. > > I don’t see why some people should deserve better opportunities just because of where they were born. Indeed, why shouldn’t Arabs be able to freely move into Israel if they so wish? Why not allow hundreds of millions of poor come in and sign up for welfare & get a free education. I can’t see how that would be a problem 😛 ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/56 "2011-01-28T01:20:20Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Indeed, why shouldn’t Arabs be able to freely move into Israel if they so wish? Israel is part of the US? > [@](#): > > Why not allow hundreds of millions of poor come in and sign up for welfare & get a free education. I can’t see how that would be a problem 😛 Why do people automatically assume immigrants get welfare? First off, many immigrants work. That’s the basis of the entire ‘they’re stealing out jobs’ thing after all. Second off, immigrants are limited in what government aid they can get, especially illegal immigrants. Increasing immigration does not automatically mean we have to give out welfare checks to them. There’s nothing wrong with saying ‘Alright, we’ll take in more people. But they have to support themselves once they’re here.’ Although free education should stay. Education is one of the strongest indications of earning ability. The more we educate immigrants, the higher paying jobs they’ll be able to get, the less they’ll need welfare and contribute to the economy via taxes. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Love](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e8c25b/32.png) [@Dr.Love](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Love)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/57 "2011-01-28T02:55:42Z")
> [@Susanann](#): > > Exactly how does adding millions and millions of poor, unskilled, uneducated, illiterate immigrants from third world countries maintain our standard of living? Well, if you worry about this kind of thing, [increasing immigration may cause a decrease in offshoring](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/31/business/economy/31view.html?_r=3&ref=business), without affecting domestic employment levels. > [@](#): > > The study, “Immigration, Offshoring and American Jobs,” was written by two economics professors — Gianmarco I. P. Ottaviano of Bocconi University in Italy and Giovanni Peri of the University of California, Davis — along with Greg C. Wright, a Ph.D. candidate at Davis. > > The study notes that when companies move production offshore, they pull away not only low-wage jobs but also many related jobs, which can include high-skilled managers, tech repairmen and others. But hiring immigrants even for low-wage jobs helps keep many kinds of jobs in the United States, the authors say. **In fact, when immigration is rising as a share of employment in an economic sector, offshoring tends to be falling, and vice versa** , the study found. > > **In other words, immigrants may be competing more with offshored workers than with other laborers in America.** > > **American economic sectors with much exposure to immigration fared better in employment growth than more insulated sectors, even for low-skilled labor** , the authors found. It’s hard to prove cause and effect in these studies, or to measure all relevant variables precisely, but at the very least, the evidence in this study doesn’t offer much support for the popular bias against immigration, and globalization more generally. [My bolding] ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/58 "2011-01-28T08:16:51Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Israel is part of the US? The point is that communities don’t necessarily want demographic upheaval imposed by open borders. People might not want Sharia law for instance. > [@godix](#): > > Why do people automatically assume immigrants get welfare? > > First off, many immigrants work. That’s the basis of the entire ‘they’re stealing out jobs’ thing after all. > > Second off, immigrants are limited in what government aid they can get, especially illegal immigrants. Increasing immigration does not automatically mean we have to give out welfare checks to them. There’s nothing wrong with saying ‘Alright, we’ll take in more people. But they have to support themselves once they’re here.’ > > Although free education should stay. Education is one of the strongest indications of earning ability. The more we educate immigrants, the higher paying jobs they’ll be able to get, the less they’ll need welfare and contribute to the economy via taxes. Strinka asked why anyone who wants to come shouldn’t be allowed in. Well, followed to its logical conclusion you could have hundreds of millions of people who have no skills, but would be eligible for welfare. This isn’t an illusory concern. Consider the problems of underclasses that have developed in the outer suburbs of Paris, or amongst some migrants in European countries. > **[What Denmark can teach America about dealing with Muslims](https://www.sullivan-county.com/id3/denmark.htm)** > > The dangers and negative impact of Muslim immigration on Denmark is seen today all over Europe. > [@godix](#): > > Although free education should stay. Education is one of the strongest indications of earning ability. The more we educate immigrants, the higher paying jobs they’ll be able to get, the less they’ll need welfare and contribute to the economy via taxes. Sure, although groups don’t all have the same track record for taking to education. Nonetheless, people still imagine that populations are interchangeable. So what then? Offer more affirmative action? [http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/59 "2011-01-28T14:17:49Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Well, what the hell does the OP have to do with the settling of a continent and the U’S.'s military role in Europe during WWII? Presumably, if you think our immigration policy should be purely self-serving you think all our other policy should too. Think about it. I’ll wait. > [@Chen019](#): > > As someone mentioned above, African Americans are particularly displaced by low skill labour from south america. I suspect you may be somewhat confused about where “South America” is. Hint: it doesn’t include Mexico. Or Guatemala. Or Nicaragua. Or Honduras. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/60 "2011-01-28T14:47:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Presumably, if you think our immigration policy should be purely self-serving you think all our other policy should too. Nonsense. The second does not follow from the first. Managing my financial affairs primarily for my own benefit doesn’t preclude donations to charity and giving an occasional buck or two to panhandlers. But that doesn’t mean I have to give my whole paycheck to UNICEF or the Salvation Army, and I don’ t have to let the homeless enter my home at will and take whatever they please. There is nothing evil in putting your own interests first. We are not morally obligated to do the impossible, and letting everyone come who wants to come would most certainly end in disaster. Yet that seems to be exactly what some people want. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=4)