# Should the US lower its immigration numbers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488 "2011-01-21T20:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/61 "2011-01-28T14:54:19Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Nonsense. The second does not follow from the first. Managing my financial affairs primarily for my own benefit doesn’t preclude donations to charity and giving an occasional buck or two to panhandlers. That’s not what you said before: > [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > That is pretty much all that matters. We need to put our own interests first. You can be damn sure nobody else is going to put our interests ahead of theirs. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/62 "2011-01-28T15:26:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That’s not what you said before: How so? I said we need to put our own interests first. I didn’t say we should utterly disregard the interests of all others. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/63 "2011-01-28T15:34:52Z")
Fair enough. **magellan** is saying that, though. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/64 "2011-01-28T17:08:34Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > The point is that communities don’t necessarily want demographic upheaval imposed by open borders. People might not want Sharia law for instance. Good thing there’s no serious attempt to bring Sharia law to the US and that even if there were, it would be unconstitutional due to separation of chruch and state then. > [@](#): > > This isn’t an illusory concern. Consider the problems of underclasses that have developed in the outer suburbs of Paris, or amongst some migrants in European countries. Paris is a very bad example. A large reason Africans have troubles integrating into French society is that French society is pretty racist against Africans and segregates them. As for your link: Living on the dole - Make it a condition of immigration that the immigrant is ineligible for aid like welfare for 5, 10, or however many number of years. Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with allowing someone to come here but insisting they support themselves. Engaging in crime - In California immigrants account for 35% of the adult population but only commit 17% of the crime. Among men 18 to 40, the demographic most likely to commit crime, native born Americans are jailed ten times more often than immigrants. [cite](http://www.ppic.org/main/publication.asp?i=776) Self-imposed isolation - Denmark may only have 5% of Muslims marrying a native. The US has only 4.9% of marriages that are interracial. So that 5% doesn’t sound like self imposed isolation, it sounds like a pretty normal rate for marrying outside your ethnic group. But even if that is your concern, hispanics in the US marry non-hispanics about 24% of the time. [census date](http://www.census.gov/population/cen2000/phc-t19/tab01.pdf) Importing unacceptable customs - Fortunately, we have something to prevent unacceptable customs such as forced marriage. They’re called laws. Fomenting anti-Semitism - Hispanics are big on Jew baiting? Sure, Muslims might be, but we don’t have a flood of Muslims in the US. With all out anti-mosque bullshit, we’ve done a pretty good job of getting message out that Muslims aren’t welcome. Seeking Islamic law - “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof” > [@](#): > > Sure, although groups don’t all have the same track record for taking to education. Nonetheless, people still imagine that populations are interchangeable. So what then? Offer more affirmative action? > > [http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=) From your own article: “The children of Hispanic immigrants (the second generation) actually stay in school much longer and earn a considerably higher wage than their parents. In fact, the Hispanic rate of assimilation from the first to the second generation is only slightly lower than the assimilation rate of more successful groups of immigrants. Most second-generation Hispanics make up nearly as much ground as the children of European immigrants would if they grew up in the same disadvantaged situation.” The rest is ‘Oh me is my, those brown people are just so poor…’ Somehow I’m not seeing how refusing to allow them to immigrant will improve that any. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/65 "2011-01-28T20:33:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Fair enough. **magellan** is saying that, though. You’re assuming that I think that compassion should play zero part in immigration or around the world. The primary, and by far largest, component to a country’s immigration policy is what would best serve the host country. And that changes based on circumstances. At the turn of the last century America was hungry for people to help build the country, and we invited in million with open arms. The situation is different now. Look at the unemployment numbers. Look at how unemployment has disproportionately hit Black Americans. It would be cruel to increase immigration right now, when you look at our own citizens. And why the hell would/should a country put the welfare of foreigners ahead of their own citizenry? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/66 "2011-01-28T21:36:07Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Living on the dole - Make it a condition of immigration that the immigrant is ineligible for aid like welfare for 5, 10, or however many number of years. Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with allowing someone to come here but insisting they support themselves. [That’s already the case in the vast majority of situations.](http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=40) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/67 "2011-01-28T21:39:32Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > [That’s already the case in the vast majority of situations.](http://www.migrationinformation.org/feature/display.cfm?ID=40) Interesting. But that is a 2002 article, using 1999 numbers. I’d be curious as to what the reality is today. Any guess? (I’m just asking. Not a “gotcha” question.) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/68 "2011-01-28T21:45:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Interesting. But that is a 2002 article, using 1999 numbers. I’d be curious as to what the reality is today. Any guess? (I’m just asking. Not a “gotcha” question.) The basics of the regulations haven’t changed; most immigrants aren’t eligible for Federal aid for 5 - 7 years or until they naturalize, depending on the type of aid. So my guess is the numbers haven’t changed signaificantly. I may poke around later for numbers, or feel free to do likewise. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/69 "2011-01-28T22:07:00Z")
Aha - here’s [an updated chart](http://www.nilc.org/pubs/guideupdates/tbl1_ovrvw-fed-pgms-rev-2010-10-07.pdf) of what kinds of immigrants are eligible for what Federal benefits. In fact, there have been provisions to expedite naturalization of certain SSI applicants, because it was taking USCIS so long to naturalize everyone that some people lost benefits. Details [here.](http://www.ssa.gov/immigration/extension.htm) It’s even one of the phone prompts if you call USCIS to ask about a pending case. ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/70 "2011-01-29T03:07:35Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > Aha - here’s [an updated chart](http://www.nilc.org/pubs/guideupdates/tbl1_ovrvw-fed-pgms-rev-2010-10-07.pdf) of what kinds of immigrants are eligible for what Federal benefits. In fact, there have been provisions to expedite naturalization of certain SSI applicants, because it was taking USCIS so long to naturalize everyone that some people lost benefits. Details [here.](http://www.ssa.gov/immigration/extension.htm) It’s even one of the phone prompts if you call USCIS to ask about a pending case. Staggering that there are so many “Eligibles” on that linked list :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/71 "2011-01-29T03:13:23Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Staggering that there are so many “Eligibles” on that linked list :eek: Really? Most of the “Eligible” categories are refugees, disabled people, children, etc. I’ve never seen a numeric breakdown either of their absolute numbers or of what proprotion they are of people receiving Federal assistance, but frankly I don’t have an issue with, say, providing food or medical care to disabled refugees or, say, survivors of human trafficking. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/72 "2011-01-29T07:14:33Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Good thing there’s no serious attempt to bring Sharia law to the US and that even if there were, it would be unconstitutional due to separation of chruch and state then. Yes, but under Strinka’s policy of allowing in anyone who wanted to that could occur. This is why you don’t just allow anyone in who want to. > [@godix](#): > > Paris is a very bad example. A large reason Africans have troubles integrating into French society is that French society is pretty racist against Africans and segregates them. Paris is a perfect example. If you bring in people who are culturally incompatible and incapable of finding employment they become an alienated underclass who impose costs on everyone else. > [@godix](#): > > As for your link: > > Living on the dole - Make it a condition of immigration that the immigrant is ineligible for aid like welfare for 5, 10, or however many number of years. Like I said, there’s nothing wrong with allowing someone to come here but insisting they support themselves. > > Engaging in crime - In California immigrants account for 35% of the adult population but only commit 17% of the crime. Among men 18 to 40, the demographic most likely to commit crime, native born Americans are jailed ten times more often than immigrants. [cite](http://www.ppic.org/main/publication.asp?i=776) Hispanics have significantly higher crime rates than europeans or Asians. See pages 34-35 which addresses the data before hispanic/non hispanic distinctions were stopped. Black populations have higher rates also. > **[Race and Crime](https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vgHgNsmZ3vsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=race%2Bcrime%2Banthony%2Bwalsh&source=bl&ots=PB1_5_XSm8&sig=5wst5DomyhTtHdm7_OYiEPUx6VU&hl=en&ei=MblDTbLbKYrCsAPzuPDdCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=hispanics&f=false)** > > This book examines the incendiary issue of racial variation in crime rates in the United States and in many other countries using a variety of data sources. It examines the latest genetic data asserting the reality of the concept of race, and various... > [@godix](#): > > From your own article: > “The children of Hispanic immigrants (the second generation) actually stay in school much longer and earn a considerably higher wage than their parents. In fact, the Hispanic rate of assimilation from the first to the second generation is only slightly lower than the assimilation rate of more successful groups of immigrants. Most second-generation Hispanics make up nearly as much ground as the children of European immigrants would if they grew up in the same disadvantaged situation.” > > The rest is ‘Oh me is my, those brown people are just so poor…’ Somehow I’m not seeing how refusing to allow them to immigrant will improve that any. The point is that if you have a growing ethnic underclass it causes societal tension and pressure of affirmative action type discrimination policies. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/73 "2011-01-29T07:31:30Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yes, but under Strinka’s policy of allowing in anyone who wanted to that could occur. This is why you don’t just allow anyone in who want to. Explain how increasing immigration automatically means Sharia, or any non-US, law becomes the norm for the US. Step by step details please. > [@](#): > > Paris is a perfect example. If you bring in people who are culturally incompatible and incapable of finding employment they become an alienated underclass who impose costs on everyone else. Paris is a perfect example nothing else beyond that if you single out a single group, refuse to hire them, refuse to allow them to integrate into society, then persecute them for some reason bad things seem to result. > [@](#): > > Hispanics have significantly higher crime rates than europeans or Asians. See pages 34-35 which addresses the data before hispanic/non hispanic distinctions were stopped. Black populations have higher rates also. Immigrants are less likely to be convicted of crimes than native born US citizens. For a discussion on immigration, that’s all that’s really relevant. Attempts to turn it into a racial discussion are misdirection at best and racism at worst. > [@](#): > > The point is that if you have a growing ethnic underclass it causes societal tension and pressure of affirmative action type discrimination policies. And that’s why Chinatown is the most violent place in America. Oh, wait, it isn’t… ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2011, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/74 "2011-01-29T11:04:28Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Explain how increasing immigration automatically means Sharia, or any non-US, law becomes the norm for the US. Step by step details please. Where did I say it automatically means Sharia? I said that Strinka’s policy of letting anyone enter who wants to is a terrible idea. And one reason is that those who chose to come may have different cultural or religious views which transform the country in a negative way. > [@](#): > > Paris is a perfect example nothing else beyond that if you single out a single group, refuse to hire them, refuse to allow them to integrate into society, then persecute them for some reason bad things seem to result. The inability of those migrants to adapt is unfortunately due to their own shortcomings. Chinese and vietnamese migrants have managed to settle without burning cars or rioting. [http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~perspy/old/issues/1995/sep/france.html](http://www.digitas.harvard.edu/~perspy/old/issues/1995/sep/france.html) This paper by Garret Jones and Joel Schneider points out that national average iq is also a good predictor of immigrant productivity and may be something to consider here. [http://mason.gmu.edu/~gjonesb/Immigrant%20IQ](http://mason.gmu.edu/~gjonesb/Immigrant%20IQ) > [@](#): > > Immigrants are less likely to be convicted of crimes than native born US citizens. For a discussion on immigration, that’s all that’s really relevant. Attempts to turn it into a racial discussion are misdirection at best and racism at worst. > And that’s why Chinatown is the most violent place in America. Oh, wait, it isn’t… You’re ignoring human biodiversity. [http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7265/box/461726a\_BX1.html](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7265/box/461726a_BX1.html). If you read the Walsh book at pages 32-33 above you’ll see that East Asians consistently have lower crime rates. These group differences seem pretty consistent around the world. You seem to assume that populations are interchangeable, so immigration is always going to be fine. But groups tend to have different average outcomes so it is quite significant. Demographics matter. > **[Race and Crime](https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=vgHgNsmZ3vsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=race%2Bcrime%2Bbiosocial%2Banalysis&source=bl&ots=PB1_5-0Sn5&sig=4diAmP5xbVLN5Xd0WLMLpgS2Nto&hl=en&ei=0PNDTa-UBI2asAOj74HGCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Asian&f=false)** > > This book examines the incendiary issue of racial variation in crime rates in the United States and in many other countries using a variety of data sources. It examines the latest genetic data asserting the reality of the concept of race, and various... ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/75 "2011-01-31T19:08:43Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Immigrants are less likely to be convicted of crimes than native born US citizens. For a discussion on immigration, that’s all that’s really relevant. Attempts to turn it into a racial discussion are misdirection at best and racism at worst. Illegal immigrants, on the other hand, turn up in the prisons about twice as often as native born: > [@](#): > > No one is downplaying the magnitude of the problem. Officers say thousands of immigrants and smugglers still cross the border illegally into Arizona every day. They commit a disproportionate amount of crime. > > Illegal immigrants are just seven percent of Arizona’s population, but make up nearly 15 percent of the state’s prison population. They represent 14 percent of all inmates jailed for manslaughter and murder, and 24 percent of inmates on drug charges - troubling to many Arizonans - even if the overall crime rate is down. – [\*\*CBS Evening News \*\*](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/22/eveningnews/main6703953.shtml) These are just the ones who actually go to prison. Illegals routinely drive without licenses, insurance and proper registration, drive drunk, flee the scene of accidents, use forged documents to get employment and public assistance, and steal or fabricate Social Security numbers. They frequently ignore zoning laws about livestock and the maximum number of people who can live in one residence. Of course, they’ve entered the country illegally in the first place, so obviously they don’t have much respect for our laws or our community to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/76 "2011-02-01T02:27:23Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Illegal immigrants, on the other hand, turn up in the prisons about twice as often as native born: Well, good thing the discussion was on if legal immigrants harm the nation and if legal immigration should be lowered or not. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/77 "2011-02-01T18:55:19Z")
> [@godix](#): > > Well, good thing the discussion was on if legal immigrants harm the nation and if legal immigration should be lowered or not. :rolleyes: It is absurd to discuss immigration at all if we aren’t going to discuss illegal immigration. If we are to reduce immigration, we have to reduce both legal and illegal immigration. ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/78 "2011-02-01T21:29:56Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > :rolleyes: It is absurd to discuss immigration at all if we aren’t going to discuss illegal immigration. If we are to reduce immigration, we have to reduce both legal and illegal immigration. A fair argument could be made that reducing legal immigration would increase illegal, and vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/79 "2011-02-03T06:24:35Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Yes, importing more working class workers will really help the working class 🙂 > > As someone mentioned above, African Americans are particularly displaced by low skill labour from south america. You totally miss my point. Economically, working-class Americans are in competition with working-class persons all over the globe–no matter what. Politically, more working-class voters _in this country_ enable the politics _in this country_ to swing away from self-satisfied neoliberal capitalist horsehockey. The more of our economy’s working class is disenfranchised from US politics (by being off in a banana republic somewhere, or being denied the vote once here by restrictive naturalization rules), the more _the most powerful government on earth_ is slanted away from working-class interests. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/80 "2011-02-03T07:12:34Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > You totally miss my point. > > Economically, working-class Americans are in competition with working-class persons all over the globe–no matter what. Politically, more working-class voters _in this country_ enable the politics _in this country_ to swing away from self-satisfied neoliberal capitalist horsehockey. > > The more of our economy’s working class is disenfranchised from US politics (by being off in a banana republic somewhere, or being denied the vote once here by restrictive naturalization rules), the more _the most powerful government on earth_ is slanted away from working-class interests. I think you’re missing the point. While it is true that more and more low skilled workers are competing on a global scale. But all that does is make those low skilled jobs in countries who are currently losing the battle more valuable. We are currently losing that battle, and Black Americans are feeling the brunt of of it. We have a moral obligation to not squander those jobs on illegals or to bring in waves of legal immigrants to ad to what is already a glut of low skilled workers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=5)