# Should the US lower its immigration numbers? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488 "2011-01-21T20:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/81 "2011-02-03T18:39:47Z")
No no no. Nationalism distracts from economic reform. There may be some social utility in nationalist restrictions on immigration in a society with a strong sense of commonality. Like Iceland or somewhere, perhaps. The positive effects of such a cohesive national identity don’t appear to be operative in this country, which automatically divides its people into White, Black, & Latin. We don’t see ourselves as one people. Juan García from Houston is cousin to Ramón Ramírez from Managua. Shaniqua Owsley from Chicago is cousin to Brenda Luttrell from St. Vincent. Jim Schoeberl from St. Louis is cousin to Uwe Mueller from Munich. But Jim, Juan, & Shaniqua are “different races” in this country. The national boundary is less important\* in the eyes of the people\* than the lines between ethnic ancestries or languages. Sure, you can get Black Anglos to resent lighter-skinned Latins, if you push a wedge. But Latins will often help other Latins, & USA Blacks will connect with other Blacks from the Caribbean as their own kind. And Whites will connect with white Europeans as their own kind. Their are finer ethnic distinctions, sure, but even then, a Finnish-American is cousin to a Finn. So the spirits of the people mock this national boundary you think is important. The reality is that to some White Anglo ruling-class type, Africa on the other side of town is almost as foreign & possibly more hateful as Africa across the sea. Even within a color group, the working class do not have so many brothers or allies in the ruling class. Real economic reform for working-class people, _in a democracy_, requires powerful organization. Like labor unions & political parties. More working-class numbers in the political arena can help. Unfortunately, due to the self-perception of Yanks as three races, immigrants from any race other than the majority are looked at as fearsome aliens, _just like the minorities that are already here._ And here the trouble really sets in. I don’t know what to do about it other than to fight against racial, ethnic, & yes, national-origin “othering.” A racially partitioned USA would soon be a poor & abused Black-istan next to a rich & nasty White-istan, which would probably be supporting street gangs & terrorists in Latino-land, assuming the last were allowed even to exist. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/82 "2011-02-03T18:57:51Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I think you’re missing the point. While it is true that more and more low skilled workers are competing on a global scale. But all that does is make those low skilled jobs in countries who are currently losing the battle more valuable. We are currently losing that battle, and Black Americans are feeling the brunt of of it. We have a moral obligation to not squander those jobs on illegals or to bring in waves of legal immigrants to ad to what is already a glut of low skilled workers. That would do nothing but hasten the flow of jobs outward. Immigrants, whether low-skilled or high-skilled, are a net asset to an economy. They create value through their work and help expand the economy, creating even more jobs. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/83 "2011-02-03T22:46:39Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > That would do nothing but hasten the flow of jobs outward. Immigrants, whether low-skilled or high-skilled, are a net asset to an economy. They create value through their work and help expand the economy, creating even more jobs. Citation? Where is the evidence, particularly, in relation to low skilled migrants, that there is an overall improvement in the quality of life for \*individual \*people? Even as economic output goes up, overall quality of life can decline (Los Angeles?). Also, you seem obsessed with economic issues. What about congestion, community social cohesion, stress on resources & infrastructure, environmental damage, the carbon footprint etc? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/84 "2011-02-04T03:16:38Z")
Carbon footprint? Are you under the impression that these people don’t exist until they immigrate? ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/85 "2011-02-04T04:19:03Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Citation? Where is the evidence, particularly, in relation to low skilled migrants, that there is an overall improvement in the quality of life for \*individual \*people? Even as economic output goes up, overall quality of life can decline (Los Angeles?). > > Also, you seem obsessed with economic issues. What about congestion, community social cohesion, stress on resources & infrastructure, environmental damage, the carbon footprint etc? It’s telling that liberals, normally so critical about greed, the bottom line, the profit motive, etc., turn into zealous free-market capitalists the second they think immigration can be spun as a way for us to make more money or raise our standard of living. I think it’s yet more evidence that their real motivation is simply to destroy America by turning it into a non-white, third-world country. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/86 "2011-02-04T04:29:22Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Carbon footprint? Are you under the impression that these people don’t exist until they immigrate? People in high income countries have far greater carbon footprints than people in middle or low income countries. When people move from low income countries to high income countries they end up consuming greater resources & their carbon footprint increases dramatically. [http://www.footprintnetwork.org/en/index.php/GFN/page/ecological\_footprint\_atlas\_2008/](http://www.footprintnetwork.org/en/index.php/GFN/page/ecological_footprint_atlas_2008/) ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/87 "2011-02-04T14:08:15Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > I don’t know what to do about it other than to fight against racial, ethnic, & yes, national-origin “othering.” Good luck with that. What you call “othering” is a deep-seated human instinct every bit as powerful as sex. Given their choice, most people prefer to associate with others like themselves in terms of race, ethnicity, social class, education, and religion, and they tend to be suspicious or hostile to those outside their “tribe.” I don’t know how you propose to get people to stop following instincts that evolved over millions of years, but I do know that sooner or later, one way or another, your war against human nature will be lost. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/88 "2011-02-04T14:31:52Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > I think it’s yet more evidence that their real motivation is simply to destroy America by turning it into a non-white, third-world country. Wow. A living, breathing strawman. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/89 "2011-02-04T14:41:12Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Wow. A living, breathing strawman. Nope, an actuality. I still remember how Bill Maher whooped and said “Can’t _wait_ for it to happen!” when one of his guests brought up the probability that whites will be a minority in the US within a few decades. At that moment he became the poster boy for the left’s bitter anti-white prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![orcenio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/orcenio/32/1036_2.png) [@orcenio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/orcenio)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/90 "2011-02-04T15:00:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Wow. A living, breathing strawman. Nah, just a silly [bed sheet party](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=big5Kd0--b8&feature=related). Keep [on marching](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsC0BCAwkb4) brothers! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Arcite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/67e7ee/32.png) [@Arcite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcite)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/91 "2011-02-04T18:04:43Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Nope, an actuality. I still remember how Bill Maher whooped and said “Can’t _wait_ for it to happen!” when one of his guests brought up the probability that whites will be a minority in the US within a few decades. At that moment he became the poster boy for the left’s bitter anti-white prejudice. Not to mention that infamous [Tim Wise blog post](http://www.timwise.org/2010/11/an-open-letter-to-the-white-right-on-the-occasion-of-your-recent-successful-temper-tantrum/) that made the rounds a few months ago. Oh, sure, when you attempt to confront them about it they deny it and claim you’re attacking a straw men, but when they speak freely and spontaneously they openly admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/92 "2011-02-04T19:09:48Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Nope, an actuality. I still remember how Bill Maher whooped and said “Can’t _wait_ for it to happen!” when one of his guests brought up the probability that whites will be a minority in the US within a few decades. At that moment he became the poster boy for the left’s bitter anti-white prejudice. Bill Maher is a _stand up comic._ Anyway, I was referring more to “destroying America by turning it into a third world country”. In any event, Maher’s guest was unlikely to have suggested that whites will be a minority in the US within a few decades, since that isn’t going to happen. Whites will probably cease to make up the _majority_ of the population in a few decades, which is completely different. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/93 "2011-02-04T19:38:25Z")
Arcite, I think RNATB was referring to your beliefs as the sort of thing that would be accused of being a straw man if the left brought it up. You want a white country for you & your children? Go to Europe, or the British Isles, have a great time. Join the BNP or the Swedish Democrats. This country, this climate, is not for White Power. You’ll just burn like an overcooked turkey in the summer anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/94 "2011-02-04T22:12:37Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Nope, an actuality. I still remember how Bill Maher whooped and said “Can’t _wait_ for it to happen!” when one of his guests brought up the probability that whites will be a minority in the US within a few decades. At that moment he became the poster boy for the left’s bitter anti-white prejudice. I find it interesting that a certain proportion of the population are horrified by the prospect that they might end up in the minority; a situation that must be avoided at all costs (even though as RNATB states that’s not going to happen), while at the same time not showing any sympathy for those who are currently in this minority state and have been for their entire lives. I guess no one fears being repressed more than a repressor. Disclaimer: I as as white as they come, and view the increase of non-whites in my area with a shrug. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/95 "2011-02-04T23:35:05Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It doesn’t, it turns the US into a third world country. However, through shaming tactics it’s become difficult for otherwise sensible people to point this out. I see. Because nobody civiiized lives south of the Rio Grande or north of the St. Lawrence, right? And particuarly nobody from Asia? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/96 "2011-02-05T01:37:32Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I find it interesting that a certain proportion of the population are horrified by the prospect that they might end up in the minority; a situation that must be avoided at all costs (even though as RNATB states that’s not going to happen), while at the same time not showing any sympathy for those who are currently in this minority state and have been for their entire lives. I guess no one fears being repressed more than a repressor. > > Disclaimer: I as as white as they come, and view the increase of non-whites in my area with a shrug. How do you know there is no sympathy for minorities? Are you aware of affirmative action? > [@](#): > > Translating the advantages into SAT scores, study author Thomas Espenshade, a Princeton sociologist, calculated that African-Americans who achieved 1150 scores on the two original SAT tests had the same chances of getting accepted to top private colleges in 1997 as whites who scored 1460s and Asians who scored perfect 1600s. > > Espenshade found that when comparing applicants with similar grades, scores, athletic qualifications, and family history for seven elite private colleges and universities: > > Whites were three times as likely to get fat envelopes as Asians. **Hispanics were twice as likely to win admission as whites. African-Americans were at least five times as likely to be accepted as whites.** > **[Affirmative action: the numbers](https://infoproc.blogspot.com/2009/10/affirmative-action-numbers.html)** > > Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade has a new book on elite college admissions. He is an author of an earlier study which quantified t... @ Polycarp, Look at my earlier posts and links about the relatively low academic achievement of mexican migrants over several generations - which is of course what necessitates the affirmative action referred to above. That is the concern spelled out here. > [@](#): > > For a closer glimpse of what’s in store for California, look at the Los Angeles Unified School District, the largest in California and the second largest in the country. Of its roughly 700,000 students, almost three-quarters are Hispanic, 8.9 percent are white, and 11.2 percent are black. More than half of the Latino students (about 300,000) are “English learners” and, depending on whether you believe the district or independent scholars, anywhere between a third and a half drop out of high school, following significant attrition in middle school. A recent study by UC Santa Barbara’s California Dropout Research Project estimates that high-school dropouts in 2007 alone will cost the state $24.2 billion in future economic losses. > > Even those who graduate aren’t necessarily headed to success. According to one study, 69 percent of Latino high-school graduates “do not meet college requirements or satisfy prerequisites for most jobs that pay a living wage.” It is difficult to see how the majority-Hispanic labor force of the future can provide the skills that the sophisticated Los Angeles economy demands. Already studies show that as many as 700,000 Los Angeles Latinos and some 65 percent of the city’s illegal immigrants work in L.A.'s huge underground economy. > > The unhappy picture in Los Angeles is replicated to one degree or another across much of California and is taking a huge toll on the state’s economic competitiveness and long-term prospects. California’s educational system, once easily the best in the country, is today mired in mediocrity near the bottom among the 50 states as judged by National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) tests in math, science, reading, and writing. And for the first time in its history, California is experiencing an increase in adult illiteracy. In 2003, it had the highest adult illiteracy in the United States, 23 percent nearly 50 percent higher than a decade earlier. In some counties (Imperial at 41 percent, Los Angeles at 33 percent) illiteracy approaches sub-Saharan levels. [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023) ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/97 "2011-02-06T00:58:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Bill Maher is a _stand up comic._ Anyway, I was referring more to “destroying America by turning it into a third world country”. Bill Maher was the snarky host of a second rate talk show, and a mediocre mind masquerading as intellectual. You only have to watch his inept documentary about religion to know that. It was every bit as exasperatingly stupid as Ben Stein’s film about evolution. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Anyway, I was referring more to “destroying America by turning it into a third world country”. > > In any event, Maher’s guest was unlikely to have suggested that whites will be a minority in the US within a few decades, since that isn’t going to happen. Whites will probably cease to make up the _majority_ of the population in a few decades, which is completely different. Only if you have very strange definitions of majority and minority, but it’s not the first time I’ve seen words acquire strange new meanings in the mouths of lefties. If non-whites are the majority, then whites are a minority. No matter how you look at it, and no matter how you phrase it, losing our majority status can’t possibly be a good thing for whites. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/98 "2011-02-06T01:10:24Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > I find it interesting that a certain proportion of the population are horrified by the prospect that they might end up in the minority; a situation that must be avoided at all costs (even though as RNATB states that’s not going to happen), while at the same time not showing any sympathy for those who are currently in this minority state and have been for their entire lives. > Disclaimer: I as as white as they come, and view the increase of non-whites in my area with a shrug. I see no great virtue in being sympathetic to minorities. They will always put their political and economic interests ahead of ours and care little about the fairness of it all as long as they get what they want. There is never going to be a color-blind society, and there will never be an end of racial and ethnic politics. In any case, only whites are seriously expected not to care about race. > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > II guess no one fears being repressed more than a repressor. :rolleyes: Not wanting my country to turn into a third world shit hole doesn’t make me–or anyone else–a represser. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/99 "2011-02-06T07:59:04Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > You could also mention environmental degradation (in theory Al Gore should be calling for a moratorium on third world immigration to first world countries). > > [National Review Online: Stop Illegals, Save CA : NPR](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=112167023) > > [http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=) That’s just golden. An opinion piece about protecting the environment from illegals, written by a flaky AGW denier who would happily clear-cut or burn every national park in this country if it would even slightly benefit a corporation. Next up, Dr. Dobson on how illegal immigration is preventing gay marriage from becoming legal. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2011, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488/100 "2011-02-06T08:16:08Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > How do you know there is no sympathy for minorities? Are you aware of affirmative action? His point was that those who are the most against opening up the immigration flood-gates are typically also those who are against affirmative action, such as yourself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/should-the-us-lower-its-immigration-numbers/568488.md?page=6)